Susan discusses the importance of being a role model to her teenage girls, her experience across her nearly 30 years in finance, and how she survived the one-chip challenge!
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Susan
Don't get all caught up in sort of, you know, small things that don't count. You know, think big picture, think long term.
Camilla
Welcome, everyone. Back to another episode of Shares, Not Shoes An Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host Camilla Love, founder of F3 Future Females in Finance Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories. We'll be open and honest and will inspire you.
Camilla
So let's go!
Camilla
I can't wait for today's episode of Shares Not Shoes, as not only is she spectacularly awesome, but I can't wait for her insights. She's an alum in maths at one of my favourite universities. She's a CFA charterholder. She's looked after Multi-manager portfolios covering all asset classes but has her roots in equities. Not only is she a portfolio manager at one of Australia's pre-eminent super funds and is a highly sought after speaker, but she's a self classified nerd just like me. We are so very lucky to have along on today's episode to shares, not shoes. Susan Chow.
Susan
Hi, Camilla. How are you? Thank you so much for inviting me to the podcast. I've listened to some of your previous ones, and I have to say it's it's just been awesome. You've had so many inspirational women on the programme, and I just feel very lucky to be able to participate.
Camilla
Well, you're one of those inspirational women, you know that, Susan, right? So that's why you're amongst this crew? Exactly. Well, we I'm so I can't wait to to hear what you've got to say to us today, which I'm so excited about. So maybe we should start at the very beginning, because that's a very good place to start. So tell me a little bit about you, how you know, how you got into the finance industry and why you love what you do.
Susan
Yeah, sure. Look, I've been in the finance or investment industry for nearly 30 years now. It's actually will be exactly 30 years next year. And gosh, saying that out loud is shocking because it's a really big number.
Camilla
And time has flown when you have a good time, right? Absolutely.
Susan
I stopped counting after 20 years. Yeah, yeah.
Camilla
Forever 29. Right? Forever 29.
Susan
Exactly right. Um, and for half, more than half that time, I've also been a working mum to two now, teenage girls. Um, so, you know, it's been sort of like a challenge. And also, you know, it's really good that I've been able to balance some juggling a career and parenting. But to start off, I always loved maths. Um, it was always sort of like a core of what I did at school. I was good at it. I studied the maths and sciences, but I just didn't want to get into science as a discipline for work. Um, so then I decided to pursue actuarial studies. I thought, oh, well, you know, I can apply my maths to sort of finance and go down that stream. So I did a combined commerce and science degrees at New South Wales Uni, majoring in finance and maths. And at the end of the five year course, I just decided I didn't want to be an actuary anymore. I had the opportunity as a graduate, I had several opportunities presented to me and at that point I decided investing was a lot more exciting.
Susan
Um, so rather than go down the actuarial path, I decided to take a position as a trainee investment performance analyst at AMP. Yeah, 30 years ago. And that's how it started. Um, and my career is obviously sort of moved on a little bit from then. Um, but, you know, I found my earlier work first five years doing the number crunching, doing the performance, being the quant analyst, um, has been a foundation in everything that I've sort of been doing, even up to today. I'm still using those skills. Um, but but clearly I've sort of moved a little bit away from the pure quant work, and I found that sort of like over time, um, I've moved into more sort of qualitative judgement. But the quantum analytics is always the core of what I do.
Camilla
So let's unpack that a little bit because I, I love it for me. We talk about it's the arts and the science but the it's the, the qualitative the grounding that the maths can give you can give you insights into things that the qualitative part can't give you and vice versa. Right. So tell me a little bit about how you mix your art and science in today's in your job today.
Susan
Yes. Well actually in the beginning it was a bit a bit of an odd one because people always saw me as a hybrid early in the career, because I was told that I was too quantity for the non quants and not quite enough for the pure quants. So they didn't know what bucket to put me.
Camilla
But I'll have my own bucket. Thanks.
Susan
That's right. Exactly. Over time I've learned to appreciate that it's actually a good thing. It's a positive, pragmatic trait to be able to bridge both skill sets and to be able to communicate some of the more sort of technical sort of aspects of the work. And, and that's where it's been sort of really beneficial to have that background and also to move on. Mhm. So now, you know, with with what I do, particularly my current role at minesweeper and even in sort of manager selection for the last sort of 20 years or so, um, it is basically drawing back on the foundations of the analytics and the quantitative aspects and really sort of drilling into portfolios and fund managers and applying sort of like a lot more qualitative and judgement calls to be able to select the best managers for my, my role.
Camilla
Yeah. And it's interesting to, um, to be that bridge between the qualitative and quantitative, because I think personally, it's the great managers and the great communicators that can decipher the data and communicate the technical stuff in layman's terms. Are the best portfolio managers out there?
Susan
Oh, absolutely. It is. I find it is really critical. Um, you know, with I guess with my line of work, we, um, arrives to meet fire managers a lot, and there's many that sort of come across, um, my inbox and to decide on sort of which ones to meet, how best to spend time both for myself and for them. You know, one of the first things I do is to to go to the numbers and, you know, just to have a look at sort of like the basics of the strategy and the portfolio and then sort of like decide whether it's, um, you know, worthwhile to actually progress with a meeting and do further sort of qualitative work on the manager.
Camilla
So let's unpack your current role. So you're head of equities and you're responsible for manager selection. So what does that actually entail at a super fund such as mine. Super.
Susan
Yeah. So so mine super. Um we're a superannuation fund. We manage around $14 billion on behalf of 60,000 members or so. Um, so my role there is really to look after the listed equities book, which is around 65% of the fund. We don't manage money directly ourselves. So my job is to basically decide on the best portfolio construction and exposures for our listed equity investments and appoint fund managers to manage on our behalf in the strategies that I've chosen. So part of my sort of day to day is researching managers, you know. Well, first of all, um, understanding and making sure and reviewing our incumbent managers that they're still appropriate for our needs and everyone still blending well together. Um, doing research, meeting new managers, um, both to understand sort of emerging opportunities out there and also to use as benchmarks for my own managers. Times change, requirements change. And, you know, next time I may not need a particular manager or a strategy today, but I may need it later on.
Susan
So I'm also building up my own database of knowledge of managers. Mhm. Um, and so once I've sort of done the work, it is a fair bit of, um, due diligence to select a manager and make sure it's a good fit with our requirements.
Camilla
Yeah. So and so just stepping back a bit on this season of Chestnut Shoes, we've interviewed Sell-side equity analysts. We've interviewed Buyside equity analysts. And now you are choosing Buyside fund managers that fit a certain criteria, which you have you determine and then be able to allocate them money to put in your portfolio. And they have certain roles in the portfolio, right?
Susan
That's correct.
Camilla
So what happens when you know those managers, the roles in the portfolio, they either style drift or they become no longer relevant to your portfolio or you say, for example, want to take a a specific tactical, I'm going to use the word bet on certain areas within equities. What how do you how do you manage all of that. Because there's lots of balls in the air right.
Susan
Oh absolutely.
Camilla
Particularly for something that is really, really long term. Like you know, people's retirement is, you know, could be 3040 years off for some of these people.
Susan
Yeah. No. Absolutely. It's um, it is basically sort of like a long term game. And what we're trying to do is put in sort of equities exposure that is for the long term that is resilient across most market environments. It's always tricky to be able to always do well across every environment. And fund managers typically have certain strong skill sets in various areas. Some are sort of like quite niche, you know, some are, focused on small caps or whether it's, you know, value or growth investing are different styles. So my job is to basically construct a portfolio that is solid and stable and will give sort of like a steady outcome. That's the ideal over the long term. So what I do is I blend strategies. So various strategies will perform well in certain markets and not so well in other markets. My job is to blend strategies. And by doing that I'm also selecting the best managers for those particular strategies. So I suppose it's a two part role. One is um, the portfolio construction and the strategy what we want.
Susan
How do we want to tilt the portfolio and then finding the best managers to fill those buckets to give us the returns that we're after and where it comes to analytics of managers deciding if they're still doing the right job for us or not, that comes down to time. You know, when you first appoint a manager, when you first meet a manager, it's like meeting anyone, you know, like a date story. Yeah, it is that they tell a story and you listen to the story and you think, oh, that sounds really good. You know, I'll like to meet again and listen some more. Um, but I guess the key in selecting sort of like a manager is, um, meeting them multiple times, um, over a period of time. So what I'm looking for is consistency in what they say. And it's the same message. So when I appoint a manager, I know exactly the outcome. I'm going to get either good or bad in different market environments. And secondly, I want to verify what they've actually said or what they say they're doing.
Susan
And that's where sort of like the portfolio analytics, analytics and the quant comes in handy. So I can assess when they're saying they're of this particular style. They tend to behave this way in this particular market. I can actually verify that through numbers. And I think the the other advantage for me is, um, other than being sort of like an early day, early stage, sort of quant, I also had a decent period in equities itself. So I had five years involved in management of passive investments and also as a stock picker. So I was on the, um, the active sort of equity side as well, doing company research and stock picking. So that gives me sort of like a good foundation when I'm talking to managers, because hopefully sort of, you know, the questions that I'm asking them are relevant. Um, and it's um, you know, it's it's intuitive and we're speaking the same language. And I think that really helps to decipher whether a manager is, um, you know, uh, make sense, not make sense being consistent or not.
Susan
And that's what, um, helps decide at the time when a manager is perhaps not doing so well. Say like underperforming in a particular period, whether it's expected or not. You know, whether we would expect that manager to perform or not in that particular environment. And if they are expected to underperform and we accept that, then that's okay. I guess what we don't want are any surprises.
Camilla
Yeah. And that's sort of one of the things, you know, inevitably as a fund manager, you are likely to underperform, right, at any point in time. So underperformance isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's more about underperforming in times when you say you're not supposed to underperform or if you.
Susan
That's right.
Camilla
Yeah. So it's just being you know, that true to label that consistency piece. You know making sure because you're putting them into your portfolio for a specific reason. And if they're not doing what they're supposed to say they're doing because that's how you put them in there. Then that's a problem for you.
Susan
Yes. It's I won't get the outcome that we're after.
Camilla
Yeah, that's not great. So then tell me, I mean, everyone in your situation has had the same situation where you've woken up in the morning and you've had some overnight. Really bad news from one of the managers you've picked, like, what are you like? You don't necessarily tell me the huge detail, but you know what? What is it? How do you deal with it? You know, do you sort of kick the can down the road? Do you go back into DH? Do you go back and have a look at, you know, why you chose that manager in the first place? How do you deal with, you know, managers that, um, do deliver you bad news? Yeah.
Susan
When a manager delivers bad news, it's unexpected. It's actually quite rare. Yeah. Um, because we meet with our managers quite frequently, we have an annual sort of like, um, due diligence review process. So there really shouldn't be any big news if it's about performance. Um, it should be something that we already expect or know about. Um, and it's either a case of accepting it or not accepting it as in whether it's expected or not. Yeah. The biggest news tends to be sort of, you know, there's a change in the business or there's a key man risk in the business, and that portfolio manager has resigned or left for whatever reason. Um, so the reason for why we're investing with that manager is no longer there. That's probably sort of like the biggest surprise that you would normally sort of get in in sort of my situation and under those scenarios, that's where we'd have to have a very serious discussion internally about, well, what do we do with that exposure?
Susan
Typically, keyman risk or key person risk is identified right at the start of DX. Yeah. Um, so we already have a view about, you know, if that person is that critical to the strategy? It could be a case that we would have to sort of terminate the relationship or, you know, pull our money back because the confidence or the conviction is no longer there. But at the same time, it's also, you know, talking to the teams to see what succession plan. And we should already know this, what they have in place. And if we're comfortable with the replacement, that might be okay as well.
Camilla
Yeah. And thankfully, I mean, as you said, it doesn't happen very often, which is pretty good. But and then on the flip side, you know, there are some really great managers out there and lots of them. How do you what do you look for when choosing your manager? Yeah.
Susan
Look, it's um, this is where sort of like the art and science sort of meets together. Um, it's that and also a point in time requirement. Yeah. Um, I've met a lot of really good managers, but, you know, sometimes it's a case of, you know, we can't onboard everyone because there's only a limited sort of like capacity of what we want. And I've had situations where we've had an excellent manager ticks every single box, but it looks too similar to an exposure we already have. So I just can't sort of like appoint them today, but it doesn't mean I can't think about them later down the track if there's a requirement. Um, but it is sort of like really tricky, as I mentioned. You know, we do get sort of quite a few managers, um, you know, I suppose sort of knock on our doors, um, requesting meetings most of the time, if I'm able. I do like to meet as many as I can. It's not always possible, just given time constraints, because you never know when a great opportunity is there.
Susan
Mhm. Um, and pending sort of like that initial meeting. If it is interesting then I will spend a lot more time doing a bit more sort of, um, profile analytics and a bit more digging to understand the manager. And sometimes it's a case of great love. Um, them, but I just have to park them for the time being.
Camilla
But at least they've, you know, come in to see you and you have them, like in your back pocket for that time where you've either got extra allocation or there's a new role that is needed in the portfolio or indeed, you know, another manager has fallen over and you can just put them in there. I mean, that is I mean, that is to me, risk management in your role particularly like not necessarily thinking about the risk management, you know, in the portfolio construction itself, but actually, you know, having, you know, a handful of managers that you really respect, you like and know exactly what role that they could play in the portfolio at a future date. I think that's wonderful.
Susan
Absolutely. And that's where I mentioned before about benchmarking. Mhm. Um, so where I might be very comfortable with our incumbent managers, but I like to also meet and you know, be close to a few other managers that are quite similar because I'm either using them as potential backups or they're a benchmark against my own manager. And one thing that, um, some of those close to me will know I'm a big note taker. So in.
Camilla
My.
Susan
Uh, in meetings, I am a big scribbler. I don't know what I do in a meeting without scribbling and and I take really good notes. So when I meet a manager again, or next time I meet them, I go back to my notes. I've got my own sort of like, uh, database of meeting notes. And I'm able to recall, you know, what they said last time, what we talked about. So then I might bring it up again. And sometimes I get really surprised. It's like, oh, you remember that? It's like, yes, I do.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah. I have it all written down in my multitude of notes over here. And I, you know, and that's great because you need to keep people on their toes. Right. You need to ensure that what they've said in the past is exactly what they say today, and what they're going to say in the future, like that is the consistency piece that as a person in your shoes that you are looking for.
Susan
Oh, absolutely. And that's how I manage the vast amount of information that I receive. So I'm keeping track of all the important bits that I need, you know, for future reference.
Camilla
Yeah, exactly. So stepping back a little bit, there's been a lot of discussion, you know, particularly over the last couple of years, about the role of a 60 over 40 balanced portfolio and whether that's still applicable today. And knowing that you've had, you know, your multi-manager approach at former role, former roles and multi portfolios and then, you know, your current allocation of managers in your equity portfolio today. Do you think that's still you know that 60 over 40 piece still does hold. And then how do you split it between global and Aussie and small and large and value and growth. And you know just thinking about, you know, that portfolio construction piece.
Susan
Yeah. Look, I think, um, I think it is still relevant, although it seems to sort of wax and wane. You know, there's always discussions every now and again. It's a bit cyclical as to whether it's relevant or not. But I think at the end of the day, I think what people are after is diversification in whatever form it might sort of, you know, look like. Um, it really is about diversification because markets change. It's choppy. So you want different things happening at different times to give you a smoother ride over time. So I think that's what it comes down to. Um, in terms of, you know, how to do the allocation, this is where sort of like an investment team comes in. So there's the strategic asset allocation piece, um, which determines, you know, how much to allocate to equities and bonds and private markets, for example. And within that that's where I sort of step in, um, in the listed equities buckets I suppose I've got the Australian equities bucket developed markets and emerging markets and where I how I construct those buckets.
Susan
Um that's that's basically my job. Um and what I have learnt over time is that it is really sort of like, um, tricky to sometimes it's tricky to take very, very large bets in one direction or the other because markets can change faster than you can implement those changes.
Camilla
Yeah.
Susan
So the best approach is to have as much as possible, um, a balanced approach. But balanced doesn't always mean overdiversification you don't want to over diversify as well. So having too many styles or too many managers because ultimately it will offset each other and you end up getting something that looks like passive. So it's deciding sort of like how you want to do that construction where there's enough diversification without going over the top. And that can be sort of a little bit risky. And we're all sort of constrained on fee budgets as well. So, you know, it's actually sort of like multi-dimensional, how you sort of put it together. Um, there are sort of some elements of where you might be able to time, you know. So for example, small caps might be cheap. Is this the time to sort of top up or not? But it's also then trying to balance that shorter term view as in next couple of years is small caps cheap versus over the longer term. Is the small cap premium still there?
Susan
Do you want to be there over the longer term, even though there might be a short term opportunity, but that implies that you'd have to be really good at timing in and out and be able to implement at the time you want to via manager sort of selection and appointments.
Camilla
Um, and that's I mean, that's an interesting asset class to make those decisions in two because a lot of it is capacity constrained. So, you know, you've got you've got to have the right managers at the right time, but then they've also got to have enough space for you to take your money too.
Susan
Absolutely. And yeah, and this is where we have an advantage because minesweeper is not one of the larger funds. Yes. So we can probably go places that are constrained a bit more constraining for others. And so we've been able to invest in we have no issues with capacity in small caps. We've got global small caps. We've even got a US micro cap strategy. Um, so that is one advantage of being a smaller size fund.
Camilla
Um, and it's nice to implement those niche strategies, making sure that you or mine particularly has a really differentiated go to market strategy, because a lot of the bigger guys are enormous. They have to buy the market. You know, they're not necessarily getting the best outcomes like you could in this circumstance.
Susan
Absolutely. And in fact, because some of them are getting larger and less able to tap into capacity constrained strategies such as small cap and actually opens up opportunities for us because, you know, where they might have to exit out of different strategies. That's where it actually gives us more capacity to take advantage of that.
Camilla
That's so true. That's so true. So let's let's take a step out of that. And you mentioned in your intro about being a mum of two. How do you like how do you like. And you and I have already had this discussion. So how do you promote what you do to your daughter? Because, you know, as a big advocate in finance as you are to have more females in the industry. How are you advocating your daughter to to join, other than being the best role model or best mum? Best everything? Yeah.
Susan
Look, as, um, as my daughters are getting older and I've got one at first year uni this year, it's it plays on my mind a lot more than it used to. I have to admit. Um, you know, I guess when I was going through the industry being sort of, you know, a younger person, I didn't think about it too much. You know, I just kind of got on with it and just moved on with a career. But now sort of with my girls getting older, I am a lot more conscious of the opportunities for them. When they were a lot younger, they didn't know what investment was about. They thought I was some kind of accountant and I did count numbers at work and that was about it. Nothing wrong.
Camilla
With accountants. Yeah.
Susan
And, um, and now I think they have a better appreciation, sort of, you know, for what, what I do, um, particularly since, you know, from time to time I go to conferences, for example, I might sort of sit in, you know, on a panel, and sometimes photos are taken and I show my girls and I say, oh, look, you know, there's this me on this photo and something my daughter said to me quite recently that, um, that I was surprised at, she didn't say anything about. Oh, wow, that's great seeing mum in photos. She actually sort of said, how come you are the only female on that panel? And why are you the only female on that table? Yeah. So that really sort of like made me think, oh, you know, I guess it's something that I haven't sort of dwelled on too much, but it actually is sort of like, um, true that there's probably not enough representation.
Susan
Um, so I'm trying to sort of like, um, get my own girls to be more aware of opportunities, not to be sort of scared of taking opportunities where, you know, they might be sort of like a minority or whatever situation. It could be sort of like, um, you know, they're the only girl in a particular sport, for example. Um, just to prepare them for later on, um, just to be resilient and, um, to try to sort of move forward and see past, you know, what might be, you know, lack of diversity or biases around them.
Camilla
Um, can I tell you that last week I sat in on a meeting with a family office that had their CIO and analyst and me, all three of us were female, right? And the fourth person was a guy, right, who was a portfolio manager that I was representing. And, you know, I actually sat there, didn't say anything, but I went, oh my gosh, this is the first meeting in forever. I can actually think about where there's a There's majority females sitting here having this discussion, and I actually.
Susan
Isn't that fantastic.
Camilla
I was so good. I actually pat myself on the back. So it was like and plus and I just I and the funny thing is I probably once I realised it, thought about it, you know, had a piece of self-reflection. And then I've probably had the conversation as I'm having with you, probably 5 or 6 times since last Wednesday, just to tell everybody, hey, I was actually in this meeting and there was a majority of females in it, and it was so good, I loved it. It was just I'm just I.
Susan
Think it's great. It's, um, it's changing and I think, you know, you're doing a lot of work in that space, which is fantastic. I think you're really sort of like helping to drive that change. Um, but I suppose in the sort of like space of the 30 years I've been in the industry, it wasn't always like that. But it's fantastic to see it move forward.
Camilla
Yeah, it is great. And I'm glad that you're sort of, you know, encouraging your girls to think about being, using, using their uniqueness if they are the one in the room to their benefit. Because I think that is that's the way that I've thought about it my whole career. Yes. Um, and I think that that's a that's a great way of putting it. So I want to ask a question about whether there's anyone in your career that you'd like to do a shout out or recognise, to recognise them on this podcast, and why were they important to you? Was it a point in time? Was it a job thing? Was it a piece of advice? What was it?
Susan
Um, look, I've had a lot of great mentors and, um, a lot of things said to me in the past that still resonates. And I still remember, um, but one of the very earliest advice I got was when, as a graduate, I started at AMP pay. And Jack Ray, um, was, you know, one of the, uh, it was a head of strategy, uh, quant sort of strategy at the time. And, um, and he was really nice and, you know, gave me a lot of really good advice as a brand new sort of graduate. And one of and I still remember to the to today, you know, like one of the things that he kept reminding me was to think big picture.
Camilla
Um.
Susan
Don't sort of like, um, don't get all caught up in sort of, you know, small things that don't count, you know, think big picture, think long term. And at the time, I recall sort of, you know, little things like, um, you know, when you first start off in your career, you're sort of thinking, oh, how fast do I move? You know, what my, what my next role might be. And, and something that really resonated was, you know, learn as much as you can. Don't go for the money, you know, go for the right jobs and what you can learn, because everything will follow after that. And I think that that is really, really true. Yeah, it's all about sort of like learning and getting as many sort of like skill sets as you can under your belt, and it will all pay off in the long term.
Camilla
Absolutely. And I think it's a, you know, sage piece of advice. You know, it's about, um, you know, not necessarily winning the battle, but winning the war, you know, making sure you're picking the right, you know, discussions to have. Right. Um, but also that big picture thing, you know, a lot of people, when you get asked, ask for, you know, job interviews, where do you want to be in five years and ten years time? It's really hard to articulate that. But if you sort of I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up, like, but like it's. But if, you know, if you're consistently curious person, you, you know, believe in yourself and you're confident and you're a reasonably good communicator, you can pretty much get anywhere and just the way that you sort of can deal with those machinations throughout your career. It's never a straight line. It is the, you know, wiggly squiggly line.
Camilla
Um, and, you know, it was a great piece of advice Jack gave you, what, 2015? And it's also.
Susan
A point in time. Yeah, it's also a point in time because, um, success can be different for different people. True. And it could look differently at different stages of your life and your career. So what you want today might not be what you want sort of later on. Um, so I think you need to sort of recognise that and just know what it is that you want at that particular point of your life.
Camilla
Yeah, it's it's true. And, you know, your decision can change today, tomorrow absolutely everything. That's great.
Susan
We're all humans.
Camilla
We are all humans. We are all humans. So, Susan, we are coming to the end. But before we finish, we have to do the quick fire questions. Do you know what you're up for, given that you've.
Susan
All right. I hope you're not too hard.
Camilla
No, no, not too hard. Easy. So it's. You know, you have to say the first thing that comes into your head. Um, and there's a there's a couple here. So. Are you ready to go? Yes. Okay. Number one, how would your friends describe you?
Susan
I get called a mum all the time. So your mum's everybody.
Camilla
And your daughters and that.
Susan
And maybe, um, practical. Um, a planner, and hopefully they think I'm nice as well.
Camilla
And a mean note taker, please.
Speaker 3
That's right.
Camilla
Okay, so is it shares or shoes?
Susan
Shares. I'm not a big shoe fan. Sorry.
Camilla
Yeah. No. I'm good. I'm good for that answer. What's the most important money lesson you've learned?
Susan
Don't put your money in something you don't understand.
Camilla
Yes, I've.
Susan
Made that mistake. Sort of like early in my career where I've followed the hype.
Camilla
Yeah, I've followed.
Susan
Tips from other people. I didn't know what I was doing, and it was a bad mistake.
Camilla
Yeah, I agree, like, my view is if you can't explain it to your grandma, then don't invest in it. Same. Same philosophy. Same philosophy? Yes. Um, what is your favourite book or podcast that you're reading or listening to at the moment?
Susan
Well, yours of course. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Woop woop. So yours. Most likely.
Camilla
Uh, hey. Next question. Do you have a secret talent that no one knows about?
Susan
Secret talent? Well, I have a very high tolerance for spicy food. Oh, and I've done the one chip challenge before, and I was fine.
Speaker 3
What was the one chip challenge?
Susan
Have you heard of that?
Speaker 3
No, no.
Susan
It's basically like a corn chip that's covered with really hot peppers. I think it's the Carolina Reaper. And you, you basically sort of buy it. It's called a one chip challenge. If you can finish a chip and not be sick or die, then then you're a hero.
Speaker 3
Does it have a rating?
Camilla
Does it have like a hotness rating? This was like a yes.
Susan
The it is. It's right at the top. So I believe it's made with the Carolina Reaper I think is the the actual name of the pepper. And it's right at the top, which is why it's a challenge. I don't think it's available anymore because I think it's had some adverse effects with some people. So they've taken it off the.
Speaker 3
Market or something. They've had to go to hospital, I suppose. Not, not not you, Susan, not you put it that way. Yeah.
Susan
Whereas that's where my, my spice tolerance comes in. So I'm not sure if it's a talent.
Speaker 3
It's a bit useless.
Susan
But it's something that I suppose not many people know.
Camilla
So don't go to like, Asian with you because you're just like, yeah, you'll choose like the biggest.
Speaker 3
One of these.
Camilla
Three. Yeah. Too much chilli.
Speaker 3
That's right. I just keep on.
Susan
Beeping in the the chilli's. That's right.
Camilla
Oh that's awesome. Um, if you had to invite anyone, live or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?
Susan
You know what? I used to have a list of names for this, but because my family's been so busy this year, we rarely get to eat dinner together. I'd be really happy if my family can sit down to have dinner with me.
Speaker 3
Oh. That's lovely. Yeah. Look, we all have such busy lives, don't we?
Camilla
I think that's really lovely. And, you know, as the girls grow, right, you just it's, you know, time together becomes more meaningful.
Susan
Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, they've got, um, the busy uni social sporting commitments. You know, we're running around all the time. Um, so we just don't have the same opportunities to sit down, all four of us to eat as a family on a regular basis anymore. So when those opportunities are there I just love it.
Camilla
Mhm. Great. Next question. If I wasn't doing this job I'd be a.
Susan
I think I'd be an archaeologist, but I'm not sure if I would have the patience for it.
Speaker 3
I would love to be that too.
Camilla
Like I'm a big like.
Speaker 3
Time fan.
Camilla
And you know, getting out the, you know, the duster.
Speaker 3
And stuff like that because.
Susan
I do like, um, ancient civilisations and, you know, reading about, um, you know, ancient Egypt and, you know, all those different sort of like, civilisations, but I'm just not. I love it, but I'm not sure whether I have the patience to do it as a day job.
Speaker 3
Ah, it can.
Camilla
Be a passion thing, though. You could retire and do that because I think you can actually.
Speaker 3
Go.
Camilla
On holidays and just go, okay, I'm going to be like a, you know, a dig assistant for a couple of weeks. I would love, love, love to do that. And also it's like.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Camilla
The you know, you're solving a puzzle because you don't know anything about these people except for.
Speaker 3
Things, right?
Camilla
And then you're just solving, you know, how did they die? What did they eat? You know, how did they live? Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3
And I just oh, my.
Camilla
God, I love all that.
Speaker 3
Oh, I.
Susan
Think yeah, I love all that. I really would sort of like, um, yeah, I'll think about that sometimes. I'm not sure how, you know, like whether that's ever going to kick in, but, um, yeah, that's something I can aspire to when I retire. Maybe I'll do that as my next stage.
Speaker 3
Totally.
Camilla
I was going to say on my next question is on my bucket list is, well, there we go. There's at least one bucket list answer, but do you have another? So what's on your bucket list?
Susan
Uh, yeah. So my bucket list. More holidays. Um, and that does include hiking to Machu Picchu as well. So that sort of falls in that category.
Speaker 3
Yeah. It does.
Susan
Um, I want to go to Antarctica. Yeah. You know, do a cruise around and sort of stand on some ice that were really nice.
Speaker 3
Would you do.
Camilla
The Arctic plunge? The Antarctica plunge.
Speaker 3
Where you, like.
Camilla
Get wet?
Susan
Look, I don't know whether I'm brave enough, but I have been in situations where I'm thinking, look, I'm here anyway. I'm going to regret it if I don't do it, so I might actually do it.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Camilla
Yeah. I'm like, my.
Speaker 3
Mum went.
Camilla
And she didn't do it. And I'm like, you've got it. I mean you're never going again. It's a once in a lifetime thing. Right.
Susan
Exactly. So I think I would push myself to do it once I was there.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Camilla
That's a great bucket list. Machu Picchu in Antarctica. Woo! Excellent.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Camilla
What secret of the universe would you most want to learn how to do?
Susan
Secret of the universe.
Camilla
Like, would you like to fly? Would you like to time travel? Would you like to? I don't know. I've been watching Betelgeuse. It's been. That's been sort of like come back from the dead.
Speaker 3
Like who?
Susan
What about, um, control minds? Is that. Is that sort of like, a strange one?
Speaker 3
It's like. That is a good one.
Susan
And controlling.
Speaker 3
Minds.
Camilla
That could be like, you know, very, uh, you know.
Speaker 3
Everything will go my way all the time. Watch out, everybody.
Camilla
Susan's coming.
Speaker 3
For you. That is awesome.
Susan
That's that's not a, um. It's not a question I was anticipating, and I haven't given it any thought, but, yeah, maybe that might be something that would be really good. If I can read everyone's thoughts and control what they think.
Speaker 3
That's an.
Camilla
Awesome answer. That's an awesome answer.
Speaker 3
Oh my.
Camilla
God. Okay. Last question. Describe in three words why a career in finance is awesome.
Susan
I think it's awesome because it gives you financial literacy and ultimately financial independence.
Camilla
Yeah, I think that I mean, I'm.
Susan
Not sure if that's three.
Speaker 3
Words.
Camilla
No, that's I'll we'll round it up to at least five. But it's I mean, that is so true because, you know, if you understand and you know, can do the basics, you can you can do a lot with your money, you can do a lot with your money.
Susan
Absolutely. And it's about, you know, making sure you're okay and you're being looked after. Mhm. You know, that's that's where that independence sort of really comes in.
Camilla
Well Susan, this has been an absolutely cracking episode. I love your mean note taker. And the fact that you want to read everyone's minds is awesome.
Speaker 3
Exactly. And I love.
Camilla
The piece that you're, you know, you still hold nearly 30 years later, a piece of advice that Jack grey gave you. I think that that is is wonderful, and I love the fact that you are, you know, encouraging your girls to think about different options. And as I said before, using diversity as a superpower.
Susan
Well, thanks so much, Camila. It's been a lot of fun and I'd love to do this again at some point in the future.
Camilla
We'd love to have you. Thanks, Susan. See you soon.
Speaker 3
Thank you. Bye.
Camilla
You know the information that is in this podcast? We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.