S3. Ep5 Get to know Camilla Love, the Woman Behind F3 and Shares Not Shoes.

Jodi Pettersen from Season 1 of Shares Not Shoes comes back to put your regular host, Camilla Love in the hot seat. Get to know the woman behind the podcast, Fthree and eInvest.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.

    Jodi Pettersen

    You need to be your number one cheerleader, right? So no one else is going to be your biggest cheerleader except for you.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Welcome back to Shares Not Shoes Podcast. The Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. My name is not not Camilla Love. It's actually Jody Pettison. And the reason why I'm hosting today's podcast will become very clear shortly. Cherscot Shoes podcast introduced those that work in finance and uncovers the personal stories of the who, what, when and how of careers in finance. So let's dive into it. On today's episode, I am interviewing Camilla Love, the actual founder of Shares Not Shoes podcast, the founder of F Three and all around awesome person. This has come after many requests from Shares Not Shoes listeners to really find out what's Camilla's story. She's the one asking all these questions. But let's pull out their uno reverse card around and discover what Camilla is all about. So thank you for stepping on the other side of the podcast today, Camilla.

    Camilla Love

    Thanks, Jodi, for saying yes to be the new moderator. You might have a permanent job, so watch out.

    Jodi Pettersen

    You better watch out. Hey, this is my first go. Excuse the listeners. Hopefully I can meet up to your expectations. So should we dive right in?

    Camilla Love

    Sure. Absolutely.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Obviously, Camilla, you founded F Three, but what is it that you do besides F Three? Because that's not your day job, is it?

    Camilla Love

    No. And a lot of people don't actually know what F Three is, so let me start there. So, the founder of F Three, and you mentioned that. So F three stands for future females in finance. And what we aim to do there is encourage and nudge the next generation of female talent into the financial services industry. And we target girls from year ten all the way through to the end of their journey at university. And the backbone of it is an online work experience programme, which is seriously fabulous. And you got to see a little snippet of it this morning, which is fabulous, and it warms my heart. There isn't a week that goes by that someone's not telling me a really fabulous story about the people they've met or the new job that they've got, and that just makes my cup really full. But we can go into F Three at another time. But what I do outside of F three. And this shares not shoes. Podcast. So I am a mom, and I'm a mom of two children and two dogs and a wife, which is really exciting. I'm also the founder of Einvest, an actively managed ETF business we found within the perennial group here in Australia.

    Camilla Love

    So the business runs just over $100 million in assets, which is pretty exciting. So I started that a little while ago. We've got now four actively managed ETFs out on the market today that anyone can trade. And I have a number of different hats. So I'm a board director I sit on, do a lot of work within the universities, I do a lot of work within my old school I went to in the start up and angel investing segment. But I've been in the financial services industry for over 20 years now and I've really spent most of my time on the marketing, client service and sales side of a buyside firm, which is perennial. What we do there is essentially all about marketing and promotion of our investment capabilities in house. So Einvest is just another feather in my bow on that segment.

    Jodi Pettersen

    And full disclosure to listeners, I am also a team member at Einvest and we'll find out later if I am the favourite team member.

    Camilla Love

    Could be.

    Jodi Pettersen

    But honestly, I don't know anyone who does juggles more than you do, and with such energy and confidence, it astounds me on a daily basis. But let's wind it back to how you actually got into finance. I'm sure you could have done anything. Why? To finance?

    Camilla Love

    Yes. You know, I really wanted to be in the arts sector. When I did my MBA, I actually did a career deep dive in whether I should actually look at buying and selling art, corporate art, on behalf of big companies out there, and I love all that sort of stuff, but really, that is my passion outside of work. So I didn't necessarily think that that would be a really good career choice for me. But why did I choose a career in finance? And that really comes down to a love of business studies and commerce, a love of people and understanding, decision making and strategy and I love all that sort of stuff, but really, it actually pricked my interest when it's all about what I describe as my international man of mystery. That guy knows who he is. And it was my godfather, so he spent most of my younger childhood offshore, outside of Australia in New York and Tokyo when I was growing up. So every summer he would come down here and come and see my parents and we'd hang out and everyone had been all super excited about where he had been, which Global City had been to in the last month, say, for example, and what deals he had done and the people he had met.

    Camilla Love

    And these stories really invigorated my interest in financial services. The funny thing is that no one actually knew what he did, but what I did was say, I don't know what you do, but I'm just going to do that and fast forward. And he's working at Citigroup and having a really interesting time. So that's how I sort of loved finance and that's why I knew early on why I wanted to go in there. But I tell you what, everyone thinks that you have to be a whiz, bang, smash it out of the park maths geek. And I definitely was not that. As I mentioned before, I'm a real people person and solving problems. And sure, I can do the math, but it doesn't get me out of bed every day. But finance definitely attracts people like me as well because it really is a people related industry and a problem solving related industry and that's why I love it.

    Jodi Pettersen

    What I love about finance is you really don't need to be that like master to succeed in this space from that moment of deciding at a young age to go into this space until more recently when you set up F Three, lots has happened. What was it on that journey that inspired you to create a three?

    Camilla Love

    Yes, a lot of different things actually. So I guess it was a reflection on my journey into the industry and the fact that there weren't a lot of females around at the time that I wanted to look at moving in. I remember in year eleven doing a business studies assignment and interviewing someone at County NatWest, which doesn't actually exist anymore here in Australia about what she did for a role. But I can't even remember any other females around me in my parents circle, for example, who were accountants or anything like that or in finance other than my godfather. So there's that. So that's sort of that reflection on 15 years in the industry. I represented at perennial a really talented group of investment professionals, but in reality there were no females at the time that I started F Three and thankfully now that has changed and changed quite substantially and I found it very hard to affect change on others if I couldn't make change myself. So I set out building F Three because I really wanted to turn work experience and the experience of the female journey within financial services and getting into financial services upside down, shake it all about, put it all back together and see if we can change the way that we do.

    Camilla Love

    It really meaningfully and I really wanted a grassroots, scalable approach to it and that's what we've come up with, with F Three. So for all those F Three girls out there, congratulations on getting through all that work experience and coming into the industry. And I know there are a lot of them. So it is a meaningful part of my life giving back into the industry that has given a lot to me, but also changing the industry for the better. Absolutely.

    Jodi Pettersen

    And I think I don't know about you, but I've sat into some of these presentations that F Three interns have made and I'm just astounded at the quality of their presentations and the research that they do. So the fact that you're getting these talented women and shoving them boardrooms yeah, I see it. Once they're in the boardrooms, they knock.

    Camilla Love

    Everyone away, they shine. It's a supportive environment and it's really important to create that. So that it really is a big fat nudge to show these talented university and school students that they can actually do this, no problem, give them the confidence that they need. It's really important to be part of that journey, to actually say, yeah, I can do this and let's take a big step into the industry.

    Jodi Pettersen

    I love it. So I guess jumping off from that as well. You've clearly helped a lot of young women enter into this space and I imagine we'll continue to do so in the future. I know how much demand there is for young women to be entering this programme and the demand of corporates to really accept them into their offices. What is it that you've learnt from s three students?

    Camilla Love

    A lot of different stuff and it's really about the next generation's views and eyes and attitudes on problem solving and whether that be a social media bent or whether that be more focused sustainability bent, whether that be really purpose driven. There's a lot of different stuff. But in reality, if I reflect on it the same feelings that I had 20 years ago on entering the industry, these people and these talented females having the same trepidation, is this right for me? Am I going to find cultural alignment of my values? Can I do it? All of that is the same, but it is just a slightly different lens with a slightly different purpose and okay.

    Jodi Pettersen

    You have been working under the perennial business of which Einstein are part of in a number of different roles over 20 years now, which to work for the same organisation for 20 years is quite unusual in Australia at least. How did you do that? What was it like?

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, funny. I guess there's a couple of things that are really important. So the ability to take big steps and risks within your career in a comfortable environment and perennial has given me that a number of times throughout my career. Whether that be taking the first job, whether that be getting my first promotion, whether that be doing offshore business development for a period of time, whether that be starting invest, it was all risky and it was a comfortable working environment and comfortable culture for me to be able to take that risk. Also thing is also about the leadership within the organisation is really important. So people who are aligned with my values, who care about me, who want to see me do my best, I think that is a really critical part of why I've stayed for so long. And working with people you really enjoy, so not only your boss, but also the peers that are around you, the intelligence, the ability to have difficult conversations, provide good quality feedback to each other without repercussion, I think is really important. I think that growing the new talent in the organisation and showing being able to allow them to shine is also really important.

    Camilla Love

    So that's why I've stayed for so long. I've taken a lot of risk, I've done a lot of different things and I found renewal each time. So it's not that I haven't looked outside for sure, because you have to keep yourself aware with what other people are doing outside. But is the grass greener or is it just a different colour? That's essentially what I'm always assessing, whether is the grass greener and sometimes it's not.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Yes, I imagine you get lots of calls from recruiters because you're such a star and yet don't tell. You're going to get flooded now, girl. Once they hear this, I'll be like, oh, Camilla. Because I know how much of a star you are in this industry. And, yeah, the fact that you continue, obviously you make that choice all the time and this is still the best place that I want to be.

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, but remember, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I would say there's a couple of things. So I think the best piece of advice that I was ever given, and it was given to me by my boss, was essentially, you need to be your number one cheerleader, right? So no one else is going to be your cheerleader except your biggest cheerleader, except for you. So unless you're putting yourself out there and saying, hey, I want to go and do that, or, hey, can you give me a chance to go on to that committee? Or, hey, put me forward for this role over here. They're not mind readers that your boss isn't a mind reader. You need to be able to verbalise and articulate what it is you want, and if you can't do that, you're not being your number one cheerleader, and it's important. But then also, the other thing is, the onus is on you to build your own profile and get stuff done, right? So whilst I've been in the organisation for a long time and I've done different roles outside of the organisation. Within charity groups and things like that. The onus is on me to build my profile within the industry for not only doing a really good job and being great at what I do.

    Camilla Love

    But also bettering the industry for the next generation. Which is what F Three is all about. Too.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Absolutely. I've really found through my career in the finance space that the more that you give, the more you get back, and you're a giver. So it's this cool virtual cycle, which is something that I think it's true sometimes you give, give, give. You might not get back straight away.

    Camilla Love

    Come on in, karma.

    Jodi Pettersen

    It's true, though. It's absolutely true. And look, I think you kind of touched it in your answer here, but I want to highlight it to the audience because I'm sure they already know already. But you are like a very excellent networker. What would you give to advice would you give to others about putting yourself out there and networking and especially when it doesn't feel natural?

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, this is a really good question and I'm one of probably 1% of people who walk into a room of people I don't know and go, yes, who can I meet? And the other person I think I know is my mum. So it is something that you have to teach yourself, it is not something that is necessarily innate. I love networking, I love finding out about new people. I think that my network is an organic organism which essentially needs new people to enter and leave as it goes to grow and be beneficial to the people within my network. So I think that that isn't really important thing to think about when deciding whether to network or not. It's important. I've written actually a blog ages and ages ago on my LinkedIn, on my best tips for networking, but things that I do. So just a basic thing is just smile because everybody is feeling equally as awkward as you are and a smile goes a long way and I think that that is if you're giving off that exciting and positive energy, you will get that in return when you're networking. So that's point one.

    Camilla Love

    Point two, I think is you need to be interesting to others and ask a lot of questions and on the flip side of that is being an active listener as part of that. So asking what do you do on the weekends and when's your next travel and what makes you tick outside of work, all that sort of stuff, really listening and understanding that of people. Because a lot of people first question is where do you work and what do you do? I tell you what, if that was the only thing that was ever about me, no one's writing where did you work and what did you do on your gravestone? It's actually about what do you like as a person and what do you do outside of work? That's actually super interesting. So ask those type of questions and be really engaged and active in your listening of that. And then the follow up piece the next morning, is it an email, is it a LinkedIn pin that says lovely to meet you last night, it was great to chat about X, Y and Z. Let's stay in touch. I think that is really important.

    Camilla Love

    But I'm quite strategic in my networking. I network inside the industry, across multiple industries and then for fun and what you find is all those people interact and you're getting outside of your bubble and you're learning different things about different people in different industries and the challenges that they are doing, which actually just makes you an interesting person to be around, which means that people want to network with you. So, yeah, there's lots of different tips and tricks out there, but the biggest one is to smile.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Yes, I agree and I think you touched on at the end, like having something when you're an interesting person, you attract interesting people to you and again, that becomes that virtuous cycle that I mentioned earlier. I've always really found it that like, offering to someone like, oh, I'm really interested in XYZ. Offering that of yourself to them can actually make them feel comfortable because then they know what to ask, they know what to talk to you about, particularly in kind of new situations. We're all a little bit of out of Practise at the moment. After Covert, I know I haven't been to many functions and I'm still kind of getting back into that groove. I think it's also okay to acknowledge the person like, oh man, I haven't been to one of these in a while. Feeling a bit rusty. My name is Jodi. How are you going? Acknowledging that you're feeling a bit nervous to someone I found personally works really well and kind of breaking the ice and being a bit more vulnerable.

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And vulnerability is important with networking because if you put yourself out there, people will reflect that as well. So they will put themselves out there as well. Yeah. It's super important. And networking is absolutely critical to the success of your career. I can walk into many rooms doing industry events these days and I can see people I haven't seen in forever, but yet I know I've networked with them five years ago and it's like, I've started again and it's hit back all the banter and what about this? And I'm seeing you here and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it is critical, it's critical for your career progression, definitely. So for those people who are scared of it, just get out and give it a go. And whether that's you put yourself a goal of, okay, I'm going to do one networking event a month or one working networking event a quarter, whatever that is, reflect on the learnings that you have during that time that you are at that event, and understand when you feel uncomfortable and acknowledge it, because there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

    Jodi Pettersen

    It's completely natural. Another tip that someone told me, which I always really like, is when you're following up on LinkedIn, say hi, so and so, it's really nice to meet you at and put the event in like three years time when you're like, oh, where do I need that person? You've actually got the record of it in your LinkedIn messages. That's really cool. So the last kind of big question I have is, you've got incredible energy, but what is it that inspires you to keep that energy going every day?

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, it's a really good question because sometimes I'm an extrovert, so I live off the energy that is inside me and I get from other people, which is why I'm a people person. Right? So everybody sort of understands that, but it can be tiring. So I totally acknowledge that as well, particularly for people who aren't so people orientated, like me. So I absolutely appreciate that. What keeps me going is a number of different things. So I always like to leave the world in a better place than I found it, and whether that be just by touching or having a conversation or being involved with an organisation or whatever it is, I always like to leave a positive mark on it so that people reflect on me in a positive light. So there's that piece. I also it's the next generation. So leaving a legacy for not only the organisations that I'm involved with, but on the industry as a whole, I think, is really something that drives me. And then my kids drive me a lot and they drive me up the wall sometimes too, but they drive me a lot to become a better person and part of me starting out three.

    Camilla Love

    And whilst it started before my daughter was born, the reason and purpose is only solidified by her and the ability for her to come to me in 20 years time and say, hey, Mom, I want to be part of the industry. And I can go?

    Jodi Pettersen

    Yeah.

    Camilla Love

    Great. It will welcome you with big arms and give you a big crazy hug, because it will welcome anyone from a broad church, from a broad background with broad sets of skills and you can make a mark and find your purpose in this industry. So there's lots of different drivers, but, yeah, that's a couple for you.

    Jodi Pettersen

    And you've had S Three students going through the programme for a couple of years now and we were talking about this at lunchtime, how I think you're really starting to see the kind of the knock on effects of what happens to these students once they've gone through the programme and or finish the university or wherever that in that journey. The reality is that you're going to for you to see real change that you're trying to make with S Three. It's going to take a number of years for it to kind of really come out, but I'm interested to know if you've got any really special stories from some of the students that you've interacted with so far on their journeys that kind of you think about when you go to bed at night.

    Camilla Love

    Oh, lots. So I think the first one is Daisy, who I went to her school and did a career stay presentation there. She then went and took a commerce degree at university and then turned up in one of my Fthree groups. So there's a great one. I had lunch the other day with four exfree girls who are all out in the industry and we were talking about, is there a way that we can all keep together? Because I would love to continue to support F Three, or I would happily take a coffee from an ex F Three girl, all that sort of stuff. Sitting on a final presentation from an S Three group today, alongside the CFA and a company called Neos, and one of the girls there said, I've done this three group before and it was three years ago and she essentially got an internship out of that. So it's really positive. And as I said right at the beginning, it really fills my cup every day. There isn't a week that goes by, like, even this week, I got an email from a girl I placed in your ten work experience at Hester, one of the large superannuation and pension funds here in Australia, and she's then gone on to take a commerce degree, majoring in finance, and she's just come back and said, hey, I'm looking for work experience.

    Camilla Love

    I'm like, well, just join one of the F Three groups that we're going to come up later on the year. So the virtuous cycle is occurring and it really is grassroots and it just makes me happy.

    Jodi Pettersen

    I know how much it makes you happy because as I sit next to you every day at work, I see when these emails ping into your inbox and how it lights up your day of these good stories. So I'm going to take my opportunity as the master of today's podcast to encourage the former F Three students to please send emails to Camilla about how much you love F Three and the things that you've done and what you've done since. And even if you haven't gone into the finance industry, I think that's also a really relevant data point. I'm sure you've still learned something from your F Three journey and I know how much these emails make Camilla's day, so I'm just going to put it out there that you should probably send her a message.

    Camilla Love

    I'm going to get bombarded.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Oh, come on, you love it, I know you do. I love a war story, camilla, this industry is full of them. What is your favourite war story from your career so far?

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, good question, Jody, because I have an absolute cracking one and, like, there's many, so don't get me wrong, but this one always sticks out. So, at the time, I was responsible for offshore business development and client engagement for perennial and we had a really cracking listed global real estate capability and I had found out that we had been shortlisted for $250,000,000 mandate in Taiwan. And so I had gone and I got everything translated into traditional Chinese language. I got an agent over in Taipei over there and the agents like, okay, well, you need to turn up with everybody and go, well, I'm turning up with the portfolio manager myself. And my boss, he goes, no, you need to have 15 people there. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Anyway, fast forward, because lots of people just don't have the you know, you don't have the resources to do that. Plus you think about all the time that takes of all these people. But anyway, so fast forward, we're in Taipei and we go into this pension fund office in Taipei and we got into this room which was this huge U shaped room with twelve trustees behind it and a big auditorium in the dark behind us, right?

    Camilla Love

    And we're on a table and we're there pitching and we're saying it in English and they're translating to Chinese and all that sort of stuff. And the clock literally had started at 40 minutes and then it went 395-9395 eight and it's like clicking down, clocking down, clocking down. And then at the end of it we had to stop and that was it. And then the trustees asked one question after one question after one question after one question and then it was in Chinese and the translators writing it in English and then giving us a question and we're trying to do it in English, give that question back and then she has to translate it into Chinese. It was a really interesting and lost in translation experience for me and it really highlighted a number of things about taking culture and thinking about it more deeply and the way that you interact with potential clients and things like that is really important. And then we all sort of left that and we sort of had to sit in our hotel room and we'd already given our fees in and so once we'd done the pitch, the pension fund would open up and work out what the fees were.

    Camilla Love

    And we had to sit there, hauled up in this apartment or this hotel room waiting for them to bring us back to see whether they wanted to be in negotiation or not. And needless to say, we didn't win the mandate. But really, as I said, really huge learning lesson for me because in reality the decision maker probably was in the dark behind me in the auditorium rather than the people around the Ushaped table in front of us. And it was enormous. It was cold because it was winter. The time we went, it was just entirely lost in translation. So it was one of those if I had to do it over again moments, it would be done slightly differently. But I'll tell you what, would I have not ever done that? Would I have? No answer. I learnt a lot about myself. I learnt a lot about the industry, I learned a lot about improvements that I should have made and things we should have done differently. But it was an amazing experience. And I tell you what, going to Taipei and the food was amazing and just everything, it was just fabulous in a country that I don't think necessarily I would have chosen to go to unless it had been works.

    Camilla Love

    So yeah, big wall story, but one of those ones. Would I have changed it for this world? Absolutely not.

    Jodi Pettersen

    How long were you waiting in the hotel room for that phone call?

    Camilla Love

    Like hours. Like 6 hours. It was hilarious. It was seriously hilarious.

    Jodi Pettersen

    And with your boss, everyone. Around you, everyone just sitting there looking at the phone, waiting, just waiting.

    Camilla Love

    It was really odd. It was really odd. But different cultures do things differently and you need to respect that. Yeah, it's different doing business here in Australia.

    Jodi Pettersen

    But what I love about that story as well is in that moment, you can prepare all you want and you're not only managing yeah. But you're managing the expectations of this whole room, of the people you're selling to, but also managing your boss, like, who's there? Like, sitting in the hotel room, probably going, I'm sure going to you going, when are they calling? Do you think we got it?

    Camilla Love

    What do you know?

    Jodi Pettersen

    I can only imagine the pressure cooker of the situation.

    Camilla Love

    And it wasn't a small mandate either. Like, $250,000,000 is a pretty big mandate. We should have sent 15 people along. We should have, I don't know, had a traditional Chinese speaker within the investment team that may have, you know, there could have been a lot of things that we would have done differently. But would I have changed it? Absolutely not. I reflect on that period and even talking to my boss about that, because obviously he was there, just how funny it was and how different it was and how good it was to do well.

    Jodi Pettersen

    If anything, it makes for a good story.

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. It might go down in folklore.

    Jodi Pettersen

    I'm sure the management is still talking about it about time in Taipei, like, ten years ago.

    Camilla Love

    Dear yes, dear me. But anyway, loved every second of it.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Let's wind into our quick fire questions and let's get right into it. So, Camilla, if you were any animal, what would it be and why?

    Camilla Love

    I think I'd be a dolphin. Highly intelligent, pretty I mean, it looks funny, but pretty good looking for a fish, I think. And it's always in the water. I love being close to the water, so I'm going to say a dolphin.

    Jodi Pettersen

    They're also highly social creatures, which is highly social creatures. Just complex social networks. It's you.

    Camilla Love

    Indeed.

    Jodi Pettersen

    What about your favourite superhero? Who is it?

    Camilla Love

    Well, I don't actually have one, but I tell you what, alongside F Three, I did a startup sort of boot camp thing a little while ago and we had to come up with our own superhero name. So don't judge me on this. And I actually won, so I'll take away with this, but I called myself the Networking Noodle and I had a special N and it was quite funny. But I'm the networking noodle. So I'll go with that.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Sure. And no one will ever come up with that one before, so I love that no.

    Camilla Love

    But can I say, before you move on, planet Money has done a cracking bunch of podcasts on creating a comic hero character and they're so worth a listen. So go and go and find there's, like, multiple of them and what they've done to buy it, and create it and now they've just done a musical which is think is hilarious. So go and have a look.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Maybe we might be able to link that in the body of the notes. Yeah. Best fashion brand for women to wear at work?

    Camilla Love

    Oh, there's a few. And I am definitely can't go past Scanner Theatre at all. Like you and I both know that they are a bit XY but they are staples within my wardrobe. I do love Ginger and smart to throw in a whole bunch of colour and interest and stuff into my work wardrobe. And even Saba I think is pretty good for the work wardrobe.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Great. I've also heard lately that Veronica Maine has really stepped it up. I haven't gone to cheque it out because again, post Covert, I haven't really been going out that much. But watch this space. Maybe we need to revisit foreign domain. That's what my friends have been telling me. What's your best book recommendation?

    Camilla Love

    Best book recommendation? So my favourite book is The Great Gatsby? For sure. I read it at school. I think I've read it 15 times. Just the Unrequited love story and the figurative language and the flappers and the devastation of loss and that small book just cracking. Love it.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Did you love Bass Lemon's version?

    Camilla Love

    You know what my favourite basal omen film is actually Romeo and Juliet and nothing is ever going to top it. So sorry. I like Leo but I tell you what, in the Gatsby in the Basilvan version, but he was way better in Romeo and Juliet and Claire Danes.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Amazing.

    Camilla Love

    Just like the ultimate couple. And the soundtrack all my life.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Oh, the music.

    Camilla Love

    The music so good.

    Jodi Pettersen

    I know that you love a short course, always learning. What's the best one you've taken so far?

    Camilla Love

    I have done a number, I think the two that really has sort of stuck out for me. I did a recent one at MIT on AI and its application in business strategy. I think that was really interesting. I've done one also with section four which is an online specialist and they do a lot of digital stuff and so that was really interesting too there on branding and strategy and product innovation and then also UNSW then learn to lead which actually Jody. You know. But for those guys out there. I'm actually a guest lecturer for it. Which I'm sorry for those people who are taking it. But the learnt to lead actually with UNSW which they offer for free for their postgrads. Is really interesting. So you're getting to understand the new and up to date thinking on different areas about leadership and stuff.

    Jodi Pettersen

    The ESG edition is coming soon, it.

    Camilla Love

    Will be released soon with similar in September. So yeah, all kind of responsibility.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Well, as I help edit it, I can vouch for it. It's quality, lack of that's great. Don't know about my Edison job. We'll see how we go. I know also that you've been involved with a number of charities. It's probably like picking your favourite child, but what's your favourite charity?

    Camilla Love

    Good question. So I give a lot to my old school foundation, Abbottley. I also am really passionate about some of the children's charity and also Beyond Blue or the sort of suicide prevention charities, because most listeners don't know, but Jody does know that my father unfortunately passed away due to suicide, so it's really important to me those areas. Should we take a little moment? I'm okay, I'm shaking it out.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Camilla, I also know that obviously you work at investing and you invest personally yourself, both in angel companies, but also into manage funds and ETFs, just like what Einvest creates over your time in the investment industry. What has been the best investment that you've made?

    Camilla Love

    In myself, definitely. So don't forget that one is probably what I'd say from a monetary position. My best investment may be in the small caps area, and the reason for that is because we've got time on our hands. So whilst it's highly volatile and can give you really good returns, it is over a really long time frame. So there you go. So I'll probably give you that one. But definitely, definitely investing in myself and the betterment and the knowledge base I have, and that is critically important.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Who is the most influential person in your life?

    Camilla Love

    Well, I definitely think my husband. He's definitely influential. He's the type of person who will tell me when things are bad as well as good, which I think is really important to have. I think my mum has been heavily influential. She is a businesswoman herself and she sort of paved away on, you can definitely do this, Camilla. So I love that. And then, obviously I mentioned my kids because they are the reason why we do what we do.

    Jodi Pettersen

    And what about your hidden talent?

    Camilla Love

    I don't know if I have a hidden talent. Like some people on the podcast have said, oh, yeah, I like to cook. And all my hidden talent is I can dislocate. Not dislocate, but got multiple joint things. I don't know. I don't know if I have a hidden talent. I would like to say my hidden talent is finding the murderer on Murder Mysteries, but I don't think I'm actually that good. Maybe that's what I'll go for. I know what I think and I'll call it out early, but I don't know if I'm that good.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Fair enough. Best wine recommendation, your go to wine if you're going to a dinner party or a function. What is it?

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, good question. So if I'm taking a white, I'm taking a Phillips shaw white. That's from Orange here in New South Wales. And if I'm taking a red, it's definitely a Clonicyla, which is down in Murray Bateman here in New South Wales as well. Cracking. And I will also say, so shout out to the Mount Madura crew. So I drink a lot of Mount Madura, both white and red here in this household. We do have a family connection, but yeah, they're the go to the go to one for me.

    Jodi Pettersen

    I love that because my go to is also from Orange as well. So Orange represent totally and last go fire question. I alluded to the beginning. Who's your favourite Invest team member?

    Camilla Love

    Good question. And now I would probably have to say the star here is our head of Legal, Juju the Cat. So Juju is Jodi's Cat and Julien Covet was a starring appearance on a number of different podcasts and videos and webinars. And even on our daily team to do, the Cat would always be there. She's there. She's number one support crew. But also she's a great legal representative because she doesn't say.

    Jodi Pettersen

    The people who don't follow the Einvest Instagram page, you guys really should, because Judy, the Head of Legal, does make an appearance on there occasionally. And some of our other followers have also got added in. There kind of honorary investments. We've got some dogs and other cats there. So definitely recommend following Instagram for the following Judy's journey as a legal cash. I also will make it very clear that we do have real legal people too.

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, we definitely.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Bill and Beck. They're great, we love them. But Juju is the star. We'll give her that. Well, look, Camilla, thank you so much for having me as your host today. I'm so glad I got to pull the reverse Uno card and fire the questions your way, because I know that many of the F three students and also F Three partners, corporate partners, want to hear more about the lady that has created so much positive momentum for this industry. So thank you.

    Camilla Love

    Thanks for being the host with the most today, Joe. It's really important. And thanks for asking the really important questions, because from all of us, and as you well know, if every single one of us tells our journey, every journey is different. Someone will see something about themselves within those stories. So it is important to bring everyone's stories to life. And that's what Shares Not Shoes is all about.

    Jodi Pettersen

    Fantastic. Make sure you tune in to the next episodes.

    Camilla Love

    Bye, guys. You know the information that is in this podcast. We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S3.Ep4 Jo Leaper Talks Jigsaws, Imposter Syndrome & Falling Into a Career in Finance

Meet Jo Leaper. Jo is the Head of Operations Consulting at JANA Investment Advisors.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.


    [00:00:00.190] - Jo Leaper

    End of the day, you have to have the right safeguards in place around the assets, insurances like you, you lock on the gate, but if you can't get that gate robust and secure, what's it really going to do for you?

    [00:00:16.410] - Camilla Love

    Welcome, everyone, back to another the episode of Shares Not Shoes an Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of Future Females in finance. Shares or Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go.

    [00:00:55.870] - Camilla Love

    Hi, everybody, it's Camilla Love and we are together again for another episode of Shares Not Shoes. And I'm super looking forward to chatting with today's guest. So I believe that this guest has one of the most interesting roles in the industry because she gets to uncover and go into other organisations and pick things apart and put things back together again, which, as a jigsaw enthusiast, I love to do. So welcome to shares not shoes, Jo.

    [00:01:27.930] - Jo Leaper

    Thank you very much. jigsaw enthusiast myself.

    [00:01:32.710] - Camilla Love

    Oh, I love them. I love them. I gave my mum the Jackson Blue Poles one and I think she's still going.

    [00:01:40.990] - Jo Leaper

    We had horrible one for my father in law and it literally had no edges and no edges. Bonkers. No edges.

    [00:01:48.330] - Speaker 3

    Was it circular? What was it?

    [00:01:49.680] - Jo Leaper

    It's sort of an elongated globe shape and, yeah, he passed a few years ago and it was still incomplete. So we took it on and we moved into his place for a while while we're renovating. And we said, Too hard, can't do it.

    [00:02:03.330] - Speaker 3

    But don't you like just the one piece or the two pieces a day and then you go away and come back again?

    [00:02:09.970] - Jo Leaper

    I still got my coverage from Lockdown. It's on one of those felt roll up things and so I'm convinced I'm going to get it done, but I just haven't got there. Life got back on track and jigsaws have sort of fallen to the side a little bit. So I need a good quiet weekend of lockdown and brain working properly to actually sit down and get stuck into it.

    [00:02:26.910] - Speaker 3

    Yeah, clear brain hard to find. So, Jo is the head of Operations Consulting at Jana Investment Advisors, and Jana is an asset consultant and advisor to large ship reannuation and pension funds here in Australia. And I even read that you managed a domestic cycling team here.

    [00:02:48.870] - Jo Leaper

    Oh, my God, I did. It's definitely going back a long way now.

    [00:02:53.520] - Camilla Love

    I'm a cycling widow. Okay, that is no mean feat, really.

    [00:02:59.550] - Jo Leaper

    No, it was pretty full on. So I met my husband Tom at uni. After Uni, he started cycling full time and every weekend we were here and there around the country for various bike races. And he won the Australian National Road Series Championship, which was a year long series, which got him a spot with the national team in Italy. So at this point. I finished Uni. I'd start at NAB and I was doing about six weeks in Europe each year with Tom. And then he was home from October to February and this back and forth romance for a long time and then we got engaged and I took a five year career break and was a cycling widow in Italy and the US. And then came home. At that point, he lost a bike and at one stage, his domestic club wanted to start a team and they wanted to to lead the team, and he's like, well, you know how all this works. So that's how I fell into domestic cycling management. Wow. Reasonably short period, but a couple of the riders that we worked, we ended up riding overseas and we had a pretty good programme going there.

    [00:04:05.300] - Jo Leaper

    I think we had seven riders at one point. All the bikes were provided, all that sort of stuff. That was definitely a very different grounding to what most people have in the industry. But it was a fun life.

    [00:04:16.620] - Camilla Love

    Totally. Living in Italy, eating too much pasta and pizza. How great would that be?

    [00:04:21.160] - Jo Leaper

    Really good tomatoes. Really good tomatoes. That's like the clearest memory. It's just that flavour of a really fresh tomato in Italy.

    [00:04:32.630] - Camilla Love

    Funny. We could be in the Italian sun right now.

    [00:04:35.510] - Jo Leaper

    That would be nice, because it's really cold in Melbourne today.

    [00:04:38.610] - Camilla Love

    We're going to go through and chat with Jo about her career journey and really delve into what operations is, why it was for her and why it could be a career for you. So let's take a step forward and tell me a little bit about you and about what you do on a day to day basis.

    [00:04:57.890] - Jo Leaper

    My day to day is incredibly varied and my background is very varied as you've worked out the cycling. But when I was overseas with Tom for that, I actually did my MBA very young and looking like I did it way too young, but because I couldn't get work visas while I was living in Italy and the US, and I didn't speak Italian, doing my MBA back then helped me sort of fill in my time, to be really blunt. Looking back historically. Well, I think the theory stuff that I learned was probably a little bit early in my career. The grounding and the time spent overseas really moulded who I am now. My background initially was actually HR.

    [00:05:32.540] - Camilla Love

    Yeah, right.

    [00:05:33.240] - Jo Leaper

    And so I did a HR management degree and I loved the strategy and the big thinking, and I hated hiring. Firing and training really wasn't me and I sort of dabbled in it for a very little bit and just went, oh, that's just not going to work. And so a friend's dad was working at a large bank and he was like, oh, they need someone in the mail room over summer. And I ended up at a custodian falling summer came around, really didn't like what I was doing in HR. Called and said, oh, I thought I didn't go on and leave again. Can I come back? And I was at Nas, including the career break, it was nearly ten years in the end.

    [00:06:06.880] - Camilla Love

    Yeah, right.

    [00:06:07.500] - Jo Leaper

    So that was I took a really long career break, but every time I came home with Tom, there was always casual work going, always contract work going. And so I fell into custody by accident and I loved it, but I realised how much kind of like a jigsaw. I like the EndToEnd process. I like seeing how things fit together and how one thing can impact another. And if I think back to what I used to love about HR and management, it was, how do you make the cogs fit better to get a better outcome? And that's what asset servicing was to me. And then I got into the client side of it, which I really love, because you make some lifelong friends, you meet some amazing people from there. I remember there being a tender consultant, come in and run a custody tender. And I went, oh, I really like what you do. And that was kind of the seed. It went from there.

    [00:06:55.200] - Camilla Love

    Great.

    [00:06:55.660] - Jo Leaper

    I worked at Access Capital with Jackie. You had Jackie Krausey on there.

    [00:07:00.040] - Camilla Love

    She is fab.

    [00:07:01.090] - Jo Leaper

    She's brilliant. I love that woman. We met there and then I ended up at Jana and started off with doing some custody tender advice. And now it's growing into this large team that doesn't just work with custodians, we work with asset managers, we work with our clients. And not just super funds, we work with charities and endowments and just help them make things work better.

    [00:07:22.590] - Camilla Love

    So talk to me about for those people who are out there who don't know, what is custody and what does operations entail in that segment?

    [00:07:32.840] - Jo Leaper

    Custody, by tradition, is holding someone's assets safe. And in the world that we live in, for a super fund or for a charity or an endowment, it's making sure that everything that's needed with those assets is done. Are they settled? Are they safe? Are they in the right location? Our cash flows manage properly and then there's tax and performance and other things on the back of it. So that's the real premise of operations in that sense. But what operations used to be, which was more of that bread and butter, is it all safe? Kind of space. Operations now? Within custody is, where are my assets held? Where is my data held? What risks am I exposed to? What are the challenges in China and Russia do to my assets and my books? What are my business continuity plans around those assets? How am I going to keep running my super fund or keeping my endowment and charity assets safe? Because there are real people beneficiaries behind all of those clients that need to get what they need out of those environments.

    [00:08:24.790] - Camilla Love

    And it's interesting because we talk a lot about cyber security, security within my organisation, and how that affects the safekeeping of assets. How do you view that segment? Because that's an area where I think financial services could do better per se, and it's a really important burgeoning segment of the sector.

    [00:08:48.660] - Jo Leaper

    It's growing so fast. It's one of those ones that we always look at is changing on a daily basis, not weekly or monthly. And you look at things like insurance around ourselves, is it even worth it for insurance? Because at the end of the day, you have to have the right safeguards in place around the assets. Insurance is like you lock on the gate at the end of it, but if you can't get that gate robust and secure, what's it really going to do for you? I think from a cyber perspective, our industry is an incredibly rich target, unfortunately, and we're very lucky that we do it as well as we do. But we have to get better and we have to get better faster at cyber. And so it's something that when we're looking at a custodian bank, they've got trillions of dollars to spend on this sort of stuff and that really is the benchmark for what we're looking for. Asset managers are doing the absolute best they can in that space, and so are our clients. But it's growing so quickly and evolving so quickly. You look at even things like spam calls that sort of went quiet during Covert.

    [00:09:47.850] - Jo Leaper

    And I don't know about you, but spam volumes or spam volumes are exploding post covet.

    [00:09:53.470] - Camilla Love

    Absolutely.

    [00:09:54.470] - Jo Leaper

    People are looking at different ways of easier money and so we have to be really conscious with cyber and really on top of our game.

    [00:10:01.200] - Camilla Love

    And you mentioned business continuity planning as well, and what does that mean in operations, particularly for your clients? Because we've seen business continuity planning as a really critical component of how we've worked throughout Covad. Have you advised your clients in that sector?

    [00:10:22.190] - Jo Leaper

    So, around COVID, we've been really lucky and fortunate that the groups that we work with, so the asset managers, the custodians, even our clients have been able to transition into covered really well. And BCP, or business continuity planning is meant to transfer in on a really quick and short term basis. And we often talk about transfer of work. So, for example, we have custodians who are in India and China, or they're in Poland or they're in Malaysia, and we want to see them turn that over really quickly. And fortunately, in those nations, or unfortunately, a positive hybrid of them being in those nations, is they're subject to a lot of natural disaster, things that we don't have to deal with. So you've got floods in Mumbai, type typhoons in Kuala Lumpur, that sort of thing. And so Covet was really hard on them from an economic perspective, but they were able to transfer work really, really well. I think for BCP now, we actually have to look at the bigger picture and look at the geopolitics of it. Costa RDS around the world that we all deal with are all located around the South China Sea.

    [00:11:21.030] - Jo Leaper

    There's challenges between Russia, Ukraine, India, up into the Ukraine Poland borders, and that's going to create a bigger challenge for BCP going forward. We have to start looking longer term at things like that, but also BCP. And the concept of remote work used to be really scary for a lot of businesses. And thankfully we're seeing a lot of businesses go, oh, we can do that. That's okay. And hopefully that is creating a concept of change around the globe that we haven't seen before because I think that will open our eyes to what else could be possible.

    [00:11:51.790] - Camilla Love

    Absolutely. And I thought the jigsaw analogy going back to that, and I know that in your role, you advise and assess your clients operations and where they can be better and where they can be helped or changed or whatever. So is there a one jigsaw piece that fits all or is there no? I think so.

    [00:12:19.010] - Jo Leaper

    That would be the drain, wouldn't it? This is your model. Off you go. Please play nicely. That would be lovely. We have a pillar foundation that we work with. So we look from an operational consulting, which is what we call the world that I work in. It's consulting on operations back to investors, as opposed to consulting to the investors themselves, being the asset managers, et cetera. So the bottom layer of that pillar is looking at the operations within Custodian banks because as I said before, these multi trillion dollar entities, they have a lot of cash, they should be able to do this well. And we take the learnings from them. And then we look at the asset management and go, well, you guys aren't that big, but you should be able to get to pretty good Practise and we try and roll that up. So we do take very similar components as that model, and then we try and right size it for the size and scale of the asset manager. So a boutique asset manager is going to be very different to some of the mega asset managers that are around the world. And you have different expectations on them, but you still want the best possible Practise they can do.

    [00:13:15.670] - Jo Leaper

    And then we roll it back into our clients who are smaller again. In a lot of cases. They might manage hundreds of billions of dollars. But they're small teams and they're usually run for member profit if they're in the industry superfund sector or we've got a diversified clients where we've got hospital foundations and charities and school endowments that are literally running on the smell of an oily rag because their beneficiaries really need the funds that are coming out of those groups. And so we try and give them the best possible Practise available. And so the foundations of what we do there is it has to be practical, you have to be able to implement it and you have to be able to assess it.

    [00:13:51.980] - Camilla Love

    And I think those three core premises are actually a really good sort of analogy and pretty much anything that you do in operations because it needs to be scalable, it needs to be applicable for the business and the culture that you're putting it into and also the funding, as you mentioned. Because really operations can be very expensive.

    [00:14:17.660] - Jo Leaper

    It can be really expensive, it can be really complex. When you've got those three foundational principles you can design it any way you like, provided you can keep to those principles. And all of a sudden Ops becomes an opportunity and it becomes a way of doing things a little bit different to try to think ahead of the curve. So we often talk about the investments guys at John. They're the why of investing. We want to invest with that manager because my team is the how of investing and how for manager A to Z is completely different the whole way through. But the same logic applies. And so when you say to someone well, how could you do it better? What would you do? Get that innovative thinking happening. All of a sudden Ops isn't just I'm ticking a box and going through my exercise, it's actually I'm designing the jigsaw, I'm trying to work out where the corners need to fit, I need some guardrails. But how I make that work within my culture to get better motivation, to get better outputs, these things actually kind of open up the world a little bit. And I think for people that are listening, who are looking at careers is that the operation side of finance isn't boring, it can be really dynamic.

    [00:15:23.000] - Camilla Love

    My way of putting it is essentially operations is extremely important to organisations within finance because they are your ticket to be in business. So you could have an absolute kickass investment team that's shooting the lights out. But if you don't have a strong, consistent and reliable operations team and framework to centre your business on, you don't get to play in the game at all, you're just not there.

    [00:15:59.450] - Jo Leaper

    It is also such a driver of culture for exactly that reason. Because if you do have a kick assessment team, which we all really want, and they can't get what they want to achieve to happen, if it's not translating to the numbers, you get demotivation, you get culture issues. There's often pay parity questions between investment and non investment staff anyway. So I can reinforce that divide really dramatically and you start to get a really tired organisation, because when the numbers aren't working the right way, it's harder to get out of bed in the morning, it's harder to get up and really enjoy your job. And so the culture and the motivation of the staff that you've got, whether they're ops or investments or risk or HR, otherwise, these have to come together really well. And opposite is kind of the glue that should be able to help make that happen.

    [00:16:43.520] - Camilla Love

    And I've been on the opposite side of the fence where our clients come in with advisors like you who run through our operations and our capability, and they ask us 350,000 questions with policies that I actually enjoy the thoroughness that comes from that assessment process, because I know that our clients think that operations is a critical part of our business. That's really important to me. Full stop.

    [00:17:19.790] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah. And look, it's one of those things that I look at and go, we do take a lot of your time. I know that our question is huge. My hands up will absolutely say that.

    [00:17:28.820] - Camilla Love

    500 pages?

    [00:17:30.750] - Jo Leaper

    God, I hope not. I'm really trying to get the numbers down, but what I take from it is I have a paying client at the end of it. I need to give them the best possible outcome and I need to work with the manager to get the best possible outcome. But what makes me tick is that if I can help a manager make a better outcome, I haven't just helped my client who's paying for the review. They get the benefit of relying on what we're saying and relying on what we're doing. A manager that makes a change or a custodian who makes a change based on something that we've had a conversation about becomes better for every single client in the market, for every single investor and every single beneficiary. And that's what makes us tick. That's how we get the depths that we're looking for. I mean, John is not always depth with difference. To me, that's where the depth of difference really comes from.

    [00:18:14.810] - Camilla Love

    So tell me, did you always know you wanted to come into finance? You said you fell into it.

    [00:18:19.750] - Jo Leaper

    No, that's not necessarily a line. No, finance is definitely a happy accident. So, no, finance wasn't what I wanted to do. And I actually deliberately chose an MBA majoring in finance and international business because I didn't want to do a CFA. I love the strategy in the bigger picture, I'm one of those people who actually likes to get up and go to work in the morning. It doesn't bother me at all. And it's one of those things where my job is so different every single day. Now, if I'm working on the one job for a long time, I get bogged down, really frustrated. I need variety. That's what makes me tick. And so if I'm close enough to be able to implement change. I'm a happy camper.

    [00:19:02.780] - Camilla Love

    Yeah. So I was going to ask, you have been at Jana for a long time now. Obviously, you love it and you love the environment and you love the people that you work with. So is that what's kept you there? Is the strategy piece what's kept you there? Or is it the people that you actually work with?

    [00:19:20.210] - Jo Leaper

    It's the people, it's the autonomy and it's the trust. They're the really big things for me. I've had some amazing mentors through January, inside and outside, and the analogy that I've used that isn't the most eloquent. So I apologise in advance is that you get enough rope, but no one will ever let you hang. You've always got a safety net. You've got an amazing support system that you can talk to and work with. The fact that John is willing to really look at the world a little bit differently, both internally and externally, makes me happy and they let me do what I want to do. How cool is that?

    [00:19:53.530] - Camilla Love

    Totally cool. And so knowing that that coolness is sort of disposed on you, do you dispose that coolness onto your team as well?

    [00:20:02.270] - Jo Leaper

    I have to. I can't do this on my own. I was on my own for this sort of stuff for quite a while. And I love the team that we've built, got some really smart people and they're so, so different, and that's the beautiful part of it. And we actually had a day and I called this morning, like, well, yeah, we're ticking some boxes. Race diversity, all that sort of stuff, neural diversity. But the fact that my team comes from completely different backgrounds is just amazing and that's what makes us work. We did a YouTube for someone who hopefully will take the job a little while ago and he's like, but what are you looking for? I'm looking for curiosity. I'm looking for someone who wants to go back to the jigsaw, who wants to work out the jigsaw. I don't want someone who's going to be ticking the box. And that's one of the things I love about Jana, is if you want to get involved in something, you can have that conversation and you can get involved in something.

    [00:20:51.850] - Camilla Love

    For all those people who are at uni or in mid career and looking for something new, how do you engage that curiosity? How do you even look for that curiosity when you're interviewing people?

    [00:21:05.180] - Jo Leaper

    It's really hard. And even talking to recruiters, how do you interview for curiosity? There's not a clear answer on that one. And I think particularly the interview process in general, it's very formal. It's really hard to get people to online and show their personality. So I think I'm getting a bit of reputation for going left to centre. I will often ask people what the weirdest ingredient is in their fridge that they used recently, what they're watching on netflix. People have got kids. What did you used to do pre kids? What do you miss doing? What are you doing next weekend? These sort of things just to try and find people's naturally curious trait. If it's in there, some people are naturally curious. That's okay. But I've really found more and more with interviewing. I have to go off topic to try and get a sense of the person. Because I can teach skills, I can't create personality. But if someone wants to just like to think a little bit freely, I think our industry can do with a lot more free thinkers. We're so governed by regulation to have some scope to genuinely change and innovate.

    [00:22:11.250] - Jo Leaper

    If we can find a way to capture that, that would be an amazing thing.

    [00:22:14.890] - Camilla Love

    Yeah, you're right. The industry has such a compliance mindset that you need to always be between two guardrails, which is fine, but to ask the questions on when you can step out of those guardrails and to actually explore that within an environment that's comfortable, it can be hard to do because it can be career limiting.

    [00:22:41.130] - Jo Leaper

    Right.

    [00:22:42.190] - Camilla Love

    Being able to ask hard questions and step outside that box, a lot of people don't want to take that risk.

    [00:22:51.430] - Jo Leaper

    I suffer from impostor syndrome badly. There are times I'm in the room going, oh my God, what am I doing here? I feel uncomfortable and I know I just have to do it. And one of the things with the team is trying to create an environment where they can ask questions and they can ask the dumb questions. Colleague and I had the same conversation yesterday. Those questions that we think are silly questions are actually usually the smartest questions in the room.

    [00:23:16.830] - Camilla Love

    Totally.

    [00:23:17.550] - Jo Leaper

    And to have the mountains to ask those questions or to be enabled to ask those questions, that's a really powerful tool. A really powerful tool. Because often in finance and investments and in Ops, we assume there's a level of knowledge around the table and sometimes there's not. And we have to make sure that those who don't understand can ask their questions because they'll go, that was actually a really good question and we didn't think of that. So sometimes going back to basics and that's how people learn as well. And we have to reeducate ourselves to make sure that we are listening to those people.

    [00:23:56.040] - Camilla Love

    Yeah, it's such a deep segment.

    [00:23:59.890] - Jo Leaper

    We're supposed to be lighthearted and fun.

    [00:24:04.090] - Camilla Love

    Let's go back to two stores. So maybe sort of slightly in the same area. But how do you find the right culture to work in for a workplace? And why is that important to someone who's looking for a new role out there?

    [00:24:22.720] - Jo Leaper

    For someone who's looking for a new role? I would try and turn the interview concept around a little bit. They are interviewing you, but likewise you need to be interviewing them. And that means asking insightful questions. And sometimes that's really hard some of us don't process information at the same pace. Those questions come to us later. There's no harm in reaching out. I have some follow up questions. Is that okay? Or if you get to the next round of the interview, make sure that you've noted down those questions that came to you at 03:00 in the morning. We use the concept of interview, interview and then coffee catch up. And the way I premise the coffee catch up with anyone who's interviewing, is that's really a chance to get to know the rest of Jana? Because I'll deliberately pair them up with someone who doesn't work in my team. He has an idea of what we do in some interaction with us, but they're really their sounding board of what's the rest of Jana life? And that's really important because if you don't feel safe and comfortable and accepted in an environment, you're not going to thrive.

    [00:25:17.410] - Jo Leaper

    And sometimes I think when you're first starting out in your career, you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you're looking for, and you have to try it and see a few times. And if you're really fortunate, you find someone like I found at Jana, where you just fit and you feel like it's working and your voice is heard and you're given opportunities, and better yet, you get the chance to give others opportunities. So I'm a classic for saying I don't like doing people leadership, but I will happily sit down and coach and mentor till cows come home.

    [00:25:48.610] - Speaker 3

    I think that's how we started. I didn't like the HR piece in my degree, but now I love leading teams because I allow people to be authentic and to rise up to their own skill level and exceed it.

    [00:26:02.600] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah, and look, it's one of those things you look at corporate psychology and you go, oh, my God, that's such a dry topic because there's so much theory. But if I look at my HR degree, that's the element that I use all the time. What makes people tick? How do you motivate them? How do you get the best out of them? How do you make it fit in with their life, with their brain? Some people's brains are on at night, some people's brains are on in the morning. If you force them all into working in the same time frame, it's not going to work. How do you make sure they get their voice heard in a meeting? These things are so incredibly crucial, and sometimes we have to step back and work out how to make that work. We have to give it a little bit more airtime.

    [00:26:38.590] - Camilla Love

    Now, you mentioned Imposter syndrome, and we mentioned it a few times in our podcast before, but you come across as really confident, has Impostor syndrome. Tell me.

    [00:26:54.370] - Jo Leaper

    So if someone said to me once, everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time, and that's true, literally, unless you're sitting. On a chair, you can't sit there and put your pants on both legs at once. But I think I want to say it's a more female trait than male, but I know males that suffer from it just as much. It's that element of humbleness that I think comes with a really good culture that makes you go, oh, am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right place? Am I not going to mess this up? And Am I going to make it okay for everybody else? And I think imposter syndrome and humbleness is probably a bit more linked than what we think. And as a core value. To be able to respect the fact that the other person in the room that you're talking to has worked incredibly hard. In this case for all of her career and built this amazing thing. And now she's going back and talking to all these amazing students at Uni and how to get them to grow and get into an industry. You go.

    [00:27:48.950] - Jo Leaper

    Wow. I really respect that person. And I think there's a linkage there with imposter syndrome as well, because you have a natural recognition of what it takes to get where you've gotten to. And sometimes you'll just sit back and go, oh, my God, I've done all of that. If someone said to me, at 18, you're going to live around the world and be a cycling widow, and I wouldn't have believed it. And so much of life is just putting 1ft in front of the other. But I think with imposter syndrome, it's every now and then you catch yourself and look back and go, wow, I've done that. And that's pretty cool. And there's nothing more than, in my case, my kids and my dog, to humble me and make me realise what I've done in that place.

    [00:28:28.270] - Speaker 3

    It is cool to reflect, it really is. And to then bring up the next generation upon that reflection.

    [00:28:36.640] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah, that's the thing. It's something I still want to do more of in my career, is from the next generation forward, and I do a lot in terms of taking calls from people who are looking for staff and that sort of thing, and just, oh, that person could be good for that job, or that person. And I enjoy that side of it. It's definitely not HR, it's definitely not Hurry, but it's just that people connection. But I look at the new generations coming through and I think back to when we were sort of growing up in the industry and you had to be a jack of all trades, you had to get to know so much of everything, and yet people are being brought through University of you. This is step one, this is step two, this is step three. And I'd love for people, if they're interested, to reach out or just opening up their mind to a much broader subset of finance, because there is so much beyond. This is why I invest. There is so much that makes this industry tick that is not pure numbers.

    [00:29:29.410] - Speaker 3

    And that's what we're here to do at Fstre. And she is not. She is because whilst the numbers are great, there are so many other segments in finance that you can go into, whether you want to be a lawyer or whether you want to do MMA or whether you want to put up do debt funding and property or operations or whatever. It is a broad church. We accept all comers.

    [00:29:53.310] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah, absolutely.

    [00:29:54.260] - Camilla Love

    You just need to believe in yourself and just get amongst it, really, is my view.

    [00:29:58.280] - Jo Leaper

    Yes. At some point, you've just got to try and you're going to succeed and you're going to not succeed. And some days I'll feel like I'm succeeding and some days I will feel like I am floundering big time. Yes, exactly. And that's so much of what we do and how we learn, but I think we're raising our younger generations to have really high expectations and so we need to be that safety net. I talked about the hanging but not dropping. If we collectively can be that safety net and help them learn, help them grow, help them explore something different, they'll do amazing things.

    [00:30:33.190] - Camilla Love

    So true. And you mentioned a little while ago about how the workplace has changed over your time of your career. And I look back on my career and how the workplace has changed. What advice would you give the newest generation coming in to understand that over your career, you might have five or six different careers and the workplace will change dramatically over that period of time?

    [00:31:01.870] - Jo Leaper

    It definitely will. Personal connections is everything. I was really guilty for a really long time of keeping my work and personal life quite separate. I felt more comfortable that way and I think I'm enjoying this part of my career more because I feel like I'm in a workplace that is so much more encompassing, so much more holistic and connected will probably be the way to go. And I think for people coming in, that's really daunting, because I've got my workplace, I've got my home face. I might want to mix that social life, I might not. But along the way, you'll find some really trusted parties that will become friends for life, essentially. And they're the group that you go with. They're the ones that I still have any stuck. I'll email going, I need a hand. It's kind of like my trusted network, I guess, would be the way to put it. And I know that if I'm getting a staff member recommendation through one of those people, I'm almost certainly going to hire out of that group. Trust you got when you're talking to people, try to get built into the organisation so that you can learn from them and they can learn from you.

    [00:32:16.820] - Jo Leaper

    Because at the end of the day, trust and value breeds trust and value. That loyalty soft compound, and that includes having trust in yourself. And we've talked about imposter syndrome and sometimes I have to just force myself to drop it and try and do hard, try and do a little bit of it is, but we gotta try baby steps.

    [00:32:33.670] - Speaker 3

    I think sometimes.

    [00:32:36.550] - Jo Leaper

    It is true, but yeah, really good friends and a glass of wine after work sometimes, oh my.

    [00:32:42.320] - Camilla Love

    God, they're the bomb.

    [00:32:43.890] - Jo Leaper

    These things work.

    [00:32:45.180] - Camilla Love

    So I ask a question every time to my guests about the most valuable piece of advice that you've been given along your career and why. Maybe it was the time that it was delivered or maybe it's upon reflection, it actually is so meaningful. What was it and why?

    [00:33:04.900] - Jo Leaper

    So when I was at Nas, I was in a client service environment, client relationship person, and it was always outwardly servicing and coming to a consultant. It was a change of tone in what we were doing. And our now CEO Jim Lamborn gave me the advice of you are always better off to say when you're at the end of your knowledge base. It's part of that being humble. But whether it's a board or a trustee, whether it's my kids to be able to say to them, I'm not sure, let's find out, I'll prove that none of us are perfect and in reality none of us are perfect. We can't be perfect. And I think for me, I've met with some incredibly important people in the industry. I've been really privileged to have that time. And I've met with people who are just out of uni. And in either case, being able to just be honest in that sense builds that trusted relationship so much faster. And clients respect it as well. So not just staff, clients, friends, it really matters. So I think it's that humbleness and self recognition of I'm at the end of my length now, I need to go back and find out.

    [00:34:16.410] - Camilla Love

    Because also, and I think on the flip side also it's the ego that pushes you on to say I can do this or I actually can fake this and pretend that I know it, that actually gets you in trouble.

    [00:34:30.730] - Jo Leaper

    Sometimes it needs a little bit of ego, but it's where you balance that. And I think that's a little bit of a struggle from time to time. But yeah, I think holding back is not bad.

    [00:34:42.950] - Camilla Love

    Yes, I'm the first to say, I.

    [00:34:44.730] - Jo Leaper

    Don'T know, I think that's actually a really good quality because I don't know if I need to go and learn something new. You asked before why I'm still here after twelve years. Because every day I'm learning something new. That's really the guts of the answer to that question. If I'm not learning, why am I at Jonah? Because I'm not going to be able to teach anyone else. I'm not going to be able to help make my clients better either.

    [00:35:10.060] - Camilla Love

    Totally such a good oh, my God. It feels my calm. I'm so warm and finally inside. Okay, so, Joe, at the end of our podcast, do you know what we do? Have you listened to are you ready? Are you ready to do a quick question? Are you ready? So, what was the question that you asked? What was your interview question again? It was things do you have in your fridge?

    [00:35:36.610] - Jo Leaper

    So, mine is pomegranate molasses, which make an amazing beef short ribs, slow cook.

    [00:35:43.150] - Camilla Love

    Serious?

    [00:35:44.010] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah, it's brilliant. I've just seen the recipe. Daniel dark chocolate in this one. I'm last night for dinner. I love it.

    [00:35:52.260] - Camilla Love

    I didn't make my own sauce from pomegranate molasses.

    [00:35:57.670] - Jo Leaper

    Yes, pomegranate molasses. It's a little bit tart, but quite a syrupy sweet. And when you combine it with the short ribs over a long period of time, really yummy.

    [00:36:07.450] - Camilla Love

    Delicious. So then, can I ask, just as a sidebar, what is the weirdest answer that you've had to that question in an interview?

    [00:36:16.450] - Jo Leaper

    It was someone who really enjoyed Swedish and Western European foods. It was some kind of sauerkraut spice thing. I actually can't remember the name of it, but I get some really interesting ones. During lockdown. I was saying what are you doing? Part of the time? And we had people who were painting little iron action men figures and lots of really bizarre things. So, yeah, let's just answer questions really work. I'm quite a fan of them.

    [00:36:46.900] - Camilla Love

    So my friends would describe me as.

    [00:36:49.230] - Jo Leaper

    Trusting and loyal, but to a fault. I guess I get a little bit invested. It's that ride or die kind of concept.

    [00:36:57.910] - Camilla Love

    If you're a superhero, what would your name be?

    [00:37:00.980] - Jo Leaper

    Goodness, I'm stumped on that one.

    [00:37:06.770] - Camilla Love

    Wouldn't it be like, Joe's go getter or I don't know.

    [00:37:16.250] - Jo Leaper

    I'm really not sure.

    [00:37:18.290] - Camilla Love

    What's your superpower, then?

    [00:37:20.300] - Jo Leaper

    I'd love to be able to read mine. That would be really, really good. Yeah. Harry Potter fan. The whole legitimacy concept is pretty cool. I'd go for that. Or operating before on the Harry Potter topic appraisal would be awesome because I'm one of those people who loves to be early, but he's honestly not quite as early as I think I should be. Anything that saves you a bit of time, I'd be all for great.

    [00:37:43.890] - Camilla Love

    Yeah. I'll have the jewel. If I could doppelgang myself and have another person living my life so I can get it all done at the same time, that would be my and.

    [00:37:52.220] - Jo Leaper

    So I could really enjoy the good parts because they're so busy.

    [00:37:55.170] - Camilla Love

    I know. So shares or shoes?

    [00:37:59.140] - Jo Leaper

    I'm a shoes person. Sorry.

    [00:38:01.960] - Camilla Love

    Shoes.

    [00:38:05.410] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah. Shares have a really rightful place. But shoes are my love.

    [00:38:10.750] - Camilla Love

    I might have to come down and have a look at your shoe covered. My biggest investment mistake was investing without patience. Oh, that's a good one. Tell.

    [00:38:20.140] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah. So early days started at Nas. Tom and I had some money to invest, and I just sort of went this splatter gun approach across a range of unlisted trusts. And, of course, when you don't have enough within each one, the fees erode, particularly from a retail perspective. And so we pulled the pin and pulled it out and lost money at the time. On the flip side, working at NAB in the past, I've been able to have staff shares, allocated, that sort of thing, through the old bonus structures that they used to do, and I've never sold them. And so it's just this nest egg that keeps growing on the side and that was a really good reminder that just patience and that long term horizon when it comes to investing is really critical.

    [00:39:06.950] - Camilla Love

    Yeah, lots of good advice there. One piece of advice I tell my 20 year old self is trust yourself.

    [00:39:14.770] - Jo Leaper

    Definitely trust yourself.

    [00:39:16.690] - Camilla Love

    So my biggest hairiest personal goal is.

    [00:39:21.090] - Jo Leaper

    It was to be running the business unit I'm running now, so not done and dusted. John didn't have that sort of operational capability and I could see a real need. So from a work perspective, that was definitely to get this going. And I'm proud of what I've been able to achieve and what John has been able to achieve, but I still sit back and go, what next? And I'm still working on that.

    [00:39:48.590] - Camilla Love

    Good. So what about non work?

    [00:39:54.570] - Jo Leaper

    People often ask, what do you want to do in five years? And my usual answer is, I don't know, I'm not sure, because, like I said before, I'm still learning every day at Jana and so that works for me. We have some family members who have health challenges and I've learned a huge amount working with them over the years and helping there. And so I actually wonder whether or not a side career in patient advocacy or something like that might be something that I do going forward.

    [00:40:23.490] - Camilla Love

    So if I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a patient advocate.

    [00:40:29.910] - Jo Leaper

    Okay, good.

    [00:40:33.390] - Camilla Love

    So my take on what weird thing do you have in your fridge is what weird thing do you have in your handbag right now?

    [00:40:39.720] - Jo Leaper

    About six or so bandaids at the moment.

    [00:40:43.050] - Camilla Love

    From the kids?

    [00:40:44.260] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah, from the kids. One of my sons is alleged to sugarcoatase and so we've got a whole range of different ones for different things. And it's like this walking medical kit, so probably their age, I'd have to say a fair variety of them.

    [00:40:57.870] - Camilla Love

    Normally. I've just got the scrunch shop bandaid papers left, so on my bucket list.

    [00:41:05.930] - Jo Leaper

    Is, yeah, Fiji Travel is definitely on the bucket list. The kids are back at sports and basketball, so that's always really good. So, yeah, probably the next thing is to find some more time to get back in the kitchen. I enjoy baking and sort of 3D cakes and all that sort of stuff, so I think that's probably the next thing to be looking forward to.

    [00:41:25.130] - Camilla Love

    I like to bake, except I bake to eat, so that's my problem. Yeah. My go to brownie recipe.

    [00:41:34.930] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah. And you just need neighbours that you.

    [00:41:36.500] - Camilla Love

    Pass it off to do that. So the last question is always a career in finance is so much more.

    [00:41:44.960] - Jo Leaper

    Than you ever thought it could be.

    [00:41:46.060] - Camilla Love

    I love that. I love that because that just leaves.

    [00:41:49.270] - Jo Leaper

    A little reach out and find out what it could be. Try something different. Don't be afraid to give something new a try because what is finance now is not what it will be in 10, 15, 20 years and not what it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. It's just so dynamic and changing and be part of the change.

    [00:42:14.230] - Camilla Love

    So Jo, I think that is a fabulous place to live and thank you so much for your time. I loved finding out about you managing the cycling team and your time in Italy and I love your deep dive in understanding culture and this complexity between investments and operations and the jigsaw puzzle because I think it's a fabulous analogy that we got to and I really loved your openness and transparency about how to juggle that the confident nature. But also the imposter syndrome because it is a big challenge because not everyone you think is confident is really confident.

    [00:42:55.420] - Jo Leaper

    Yeah, very true. Thank you so much. It's been really good to chat to you. Tamila.

    [00:42:59.300] - Camilla Love

    Thanks Jo. I'll see you next time.

    [00:43:01.350] - Jo Leaper

    Sounds good.

    [00:43:02.440] - Camilla Love

    Bye.

    [00:43:08.030] - Camilla Love

    You know the information that is in this podcast, we always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice, it's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances of that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S3.Ep3 Katharine Goulstone on "Why Risk Is Cool"

Meet Katharine. Katharine Goulstone is a partner at Deloitte in their Risk Advisory practice.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.

    Katharine Goulstone

    So risk advisory is where it's at. Risk is cool and I've been telling you for a long time. So I'm delighted that you finally have a risk series in your podcast, because risk is really where it's at. More women need to be in risk. Welcome, everyone.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes an Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host, camilla Love, founder of F. Three future females in finance. Shares on Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go.

    Camilla Love

    I have been really looking forward to today's episode since the beginning of the season because I know you will absolutely love this person. She is one of my all time favourites in my life and I think you should meet her, which is the reason why she's on. Not only do I think that she is just smart and cool, but she's just a person who kicks ass in life. And actually we've just started and her pronoun is boss, which I think says everything. This person has worked in hedge funds, regulators, banks and in the big four she's just straight up she calls a spade a shovel and she's just all round fab. So, Catherine golfden. Welcome to Shares not shoes.

    Hello.

    Camilla Love

    Oh my God. So excited to have this chat today. So, Catherine is a partner at Deloitte in their Risk Advisory Practise and focuses on helping financial services firms as her clients in responding to an undergoing regulatory inquiries and concerns. And the reason why I've chosen Catherine today, because she has so much wisdom and she's going to pass all that along to all of you today. And by the way, she also loves working in finance. She's the bomb. So, thank you again for joining and I hope that now you live up.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And I know that you will intro Camila. I was feeling very comfortable until you gave me that big talk up and so now I'm just hopeful that I can share any of those wisdom stories with your listeners. But I will try my very best.

    Camilla Love

    I know you will. So let's start a little bit at the beginning. So tell me a little bit about you and what you do. What is the day today look like for you?

    Katharine Goulstone

    So, as you mentioned, I work in Deloitte's risk advisory Practise. So we're obviously one of the big four consulting firms and one of the biggest consulting firms and we do number of things. So risk Advisory is where it's at. Risk is cool. I know I've been telling you for a long time. So I'm delighted that you finally have a risk series in your podcast, because risk is really where it's at. More women need to be in risk. As you mentioned, I guess I have that regulatory focus. So I spent a chunk of my career both in the financial markets and then as a regulator. And I think from those perspectives, I suppose I have a healthy understanding of what must go right, which I think is probably the essence of the things I think about. How do you build those things that must go right and then how do you step in and fix things when that isn't the case? So my day to day at Deloitte, as you suggested, I focus on financial services. There are parts of that industry that are very heavily regulated, work a lot in banking. We also do a lot across superannuation and insurance and in wealth.

    Katharine Goulstone

    So it's a big gamut that we do. In risk advisory, I tend to focus on the banks and in financial markets. That's where my area of focus is. And the types of work that we think about is so diverse and I think this is why I love it so much. But that thread is always the regulatory driver. What's changing in regulations? What's the change in a client's business model? That means that systems and processes and tooling need to need to change. How do organisations, particularly big and large and complex organisations, what are the processes in those organisations that are monitoring critical risks? And I don't think this is about death by controls, but I think in any process or in any organisation, there are specific things that must go right. And so how do you understand and what are the processes and the surveillance tools that you have in place to detect and understand the potential harms in your business and future proof them? So I think that it falls into a lot of things, but I love it and I love the diversity of it, I love the high stakes nature of it. We get to work with big organisations, think about big problems, and I think from time to time, when those organisations do have those dark days, being able to jump in there and help and get them through those crisis as effectively as possible, it's meaningful work and it's very exciting.

    Camilla Love

    So some of those client of yours comes to you and says, I've got this really big, hairy problem. And some of those, as you mentioned, some of those problems are really complex. How do you actually sit there and think about that complexity and how it actually forms out of the risk componentry of it, but also to ensure that they're still getting the return they need to still be profitable as a business? And then you're adding back into the culture of the business from a risk framework point of view, how do you take those big? Where do you start?

    Katharine Goulstone

    My approach is generally to start with the rates, what must be true in your business. And I think one of the things that I do find our clients really appreciate and I think perhaps from my perspective, because I am an ex regulator, I think one of the things I do spend a lot of time talking about is that regulatory intent, what is the expectation of your organisation and what are the harms that regulators could be potentially concerned about?

    Camilla Love

    I mean, what does risk mean to you? Maybe that's just maybe a starting point to educate some of our listeners about that component of the industry and why is it critical to the business?

    Katharine Goulstone

    Yes, it's a good question because I think even in the Australian market, even now, I think people use a lot of phrases like risk and compliance interchangeably and they all mean very different things and different things to different businesses. Right. My perspective of a great risk function is a function that helps an organisation take risks safely and that's not so much about a compliance person throwing up every control, but how do you navigate the organisational strategy and execute that safely within that organization's risk appetite? And when I think about regulatory risk, one of the things that I do talk about with our clients is what is your specific appetite to regulatory failure? What are the things that non negotiable must go right, and then let's start there in developing that regulatory risk strategy and building processes and systems underpinning that that deliver on your level of risk tolerance to those various things. So I think there's always becomes an element of compliance underneath that as we build those processes and controls. But I think that risk perspective is something that often requires careful decisioning and healthy discussion and debate at that executive and board level.

    Camilla Love

    And I'm going to say this so you're not the fun police?

    Katharine Goulstone

    No, you know me, Camilla, I am not the fun police.

    Camilla Love

    Let's park that one, because that has too much baggage, I think. Yeah, quite. But from a risk perspective, it's not about not allowing you to do things, it's how you can do what you want to do within a framework that is beneficial to success.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Absolutely. And I think if you look at financial services now, it's innovating faster than ever before. I see much and it's not just even new types of businesses that are coming in and disrupting, it's just even all of the financial services that currently exist have to be completely reimagined in the next couple of years. There is just so much change that's on foot, but there is just this tsunami of change that needs to happen and should happen and financial services will be a much more dynamic and exciting and future proof place because of that. And so I think that that risk element is absolutely not the risk police. But it's really about when an organisation sets their strategy of those goals and what is the place that they need to get to. What's then the systems and process have been placed around. OK. In order to get their work must go right and let's place our efforts in making sure that those things do go right. So we get to our journey safely. Because I think one of the things that I kind of look back over the last number of years, and even including the Royal Commission, which is obviously a huge event in our industry and in our lifetime, the fallout of that, the collateral damage, was enormous.

    Katharine Goulstone

    The disruption to businesses in dealing with having to go back and remediate historic issues, the damage to executives and boards that needed to step down. It takes organisations a long time to recover from those major failures. And so I think that risk lenses, really, if you know that there are certain things that must go right and you must not fail at then control those processes. It's not about constraining the business from innovating or taking risks across a variety of businesses and portfolios, it's just about making sure that the things must go right, the organisation gets there safely, because.

    Camilla Love

    Really, you've only got your reputation to another business. That's it. And personally, yeah, absolutely. So then, before we move on, I'm really interested because risk is an area that is in desperate need of graduate and new talent. It is a burgeoning area, growing substantially, and Australia is generally quite good at managing risk and producing really high quality risk professionals. Why would you tell a new entrant or someone who is looking to change their role into risk, why would you tell them it's the best place to be?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I think, like many parts of financial services right, I think in risk, it's many careers in one. I don't think I've ever had two consecutive years in my work history that have been anything like the previous. So I think there's that diversity and I also kind of think that it lends itself to being in the pony end of that decision in organisations. Where are we going, how are we going to get there? What needs to be true in order for us to get there safely? So I think it's a really exciting and dynamic and challenging place to be in a variety of decisions and there's so many different roles there, right across that risk spectrum. I think even across Risk Advisory at Deloitte, the areas of specific focus that each of my colleagues have is just so different across so very many risk domains. So I think it's a diverse and exciting area.

    Camilla Love

    Cool. So let's step back a little bit and let's talk about the early stage of your career. Did you always know you wanted to be in finance and why did you know that?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I think many people say they start a career, start a journey and don't know where they want to go, but for me, I was always attracted to financial services, like always. And I think there were two major contributors to that, and they were actually my mom and my dad. That sounds a little cheesy, but let me tell you why, because it's probably not what you think. So I think my dad, he was a bond trader. And if you think about what money market desk were in the it's so cool. I know, right? So as a young person, I remember kind of walking into this trading floor, and it was back. These are the high vis jackets in the ashtray and the telephone and that cloud bubble across the desk and everybody yelling, and I had absolutely no idea what was going on. But it seemed to me to be the funnest job in the world. And I think as a very young child, I'd see my dad kind of flying around and off to Asia. It was always in Singapore and Tokyo and Hong Kong, and I had no idea what he was doing there.

    Katharine Goulstone

    But, gee, it just seemed like this very exciting space. And I think as I grew up, I think I had this attraction to financial markets because I think it was the complexity. I couldn't understand what the hell was happening.

    Camilla Love

    But you wanted to know why I.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Was drawn to try to understand what financial markets and the capital markets was about. I think the second thing that was a huge influencer was my mom. And my mom did not work in financial services, but she was a single mom and she was a nurse. And one thing I learned from her as a very young person, but also as I grew older, was that she was exceptional at managing the household finances. And that was a tough gig when you work shift work as a single mom who is a nurse. And I think I learned so many great lessons in and I think this is really where I became very inspired around financial literacy, financial independence of women. I saw this great role model there, but also the vulnerability about being a woman and managing your financial security in a world that's designed that that wasn't the case. I think the combination of both of those things I was drawn to financial services. I wanted to be financially literate. I wanted to be financially secure. And I was drawn to finance and the economy to try and understand how does this all fit together and how do I find a career that has that global focus where there's the opportunity to start to understand what all of this complex world of yelling and screaming and investment means.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And so I think that was probably for me. I knew there was a direction I was going to go, but I had really, other than my dad, I didn't know anyone that worked in this industry. So I think that's probably where that inspiration came from. So I think there was a definite draw to the industry. But really no plan how to get there.

    Camilla Love

    The no plan is always a plan, right. When we look back on it and people generally fall into it or they've made a concerted effort. Right? Which bucket do you sit in?

    Katharine Goulstone

    Definitely concerted effort. Interestingly. My personal circumstances were that I didn't finish high school and not many people know that about my journey because I've probably had a long career of being an advocate for education and continued to educate myself along the way. In fact, that's where we met, Camilla, first day of our MBA class. There's you in the front row, there's me in the back row. So I entered the workforce while all of my school friends were entering year eleven and I just knew it had to be in the market and my very first job. I still don't even know how I managed to find my way there. But I was a runner or a courier now. Ups. It was Warburg Dylan Reed at the time and I had a little satchel of contract notes that I used to run around the city and delivering during the trading day. And so I found my way in and out of every stock broker and bank within the market and it was all of the exciting things that I thought it would be. So I think it affirmed I was in the right place. I just had to find my way, my way in.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And actually, I think while my friends were doing their HSC, I went and started studying. It was called the securities Institute of.

    Camilla Love

    Australia, but it's now Finnsier.

    Katharine Goulstone

    It is. And so this is where I started learning all about finance and started doing their courses module by module. I loved it and so it was just the beginning of an exciting journey in finance for me.

    Camilla Love

    Great. So then I know a little bit about your career and how you've been offshore as well as onshore. Talk to me about where your finance career took you offshore.

    Katharine Goulstone

    I spent the early years doing whatever entry level job I could find in the industry to keep learning and growing. And I went across to London, like many of my friends did when they finished university, to go and get some work experience and travel a little bit. And while I was over there, a couple of really impactful choices or sliding door moments happened for me. One was and this is all prayer, Jesse, right. This is an exciting time in finance. I started working at a fabulous fund of fund in London. It was an American company that had just opened a business in London where it had traders executing on behalf of their American business and they had six very senior people in the business and no one really holding it together. And so I quite abruptly and that is a little bit of my mo, if you would suggest that I would be a fabulous person to come and help them establish that business and support them. And so I found myself very quickly sitting on this trading floor of the six very, very senior people, one leading a private equity business and another one leading a high yield book and some traders executing on behalf.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And so I found myself kind of doing the back offs and the operations and supporting legal and supporting compliance booking trades. It was just it was it was fabulous. I was working in London Day, I was working the US day and it was an exciting time. Like the markets were so dynamic and I remember at the time, my now husband saying to me, you're never going to find another job like this. This is the job that is going to ruin all jobs for you. And I think it was I think I learned more in that role about the markets, I think on the technical, but also about business, about the type of work I wanted to do, about the type of leader I wanted to be, about the type of opportunities I wanted to seek. It was fabulous time and it's interesting.

    Camilla Love

    That you I talk a lot about it and shares, not shoes about large organisations versus small organisations and how you can actually use small organisations to actually grow that breadth of knowledge that you have and just making sure that don't dismiss small organisations when you are on your job search out there. Particularly for new grads that are coming out into the industry because they generally sort of gravitate to the big four or large organisations but there's a raft of really great small organisations that are highly globally competitive that can give you a lot more of a leg up in opportunities that you never would have thought before and it's a great sign that you've done that as well.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Yeah, 100%, I agree. I think there's different we have these different steps in our career and from each job we learn something different. I think the hedge fund space, there's no 5000 person hedge fund out there if you want to learn that part of the market, they are smaller firms. But I think the other opportunity in that is there's no junior people. These are the smartest, most senior people in the industry and so I think it's almost by sitting there, by osmosis every single conversation that you over here, you're learning something but then there's also this opportunity that doesn't exist in other firms which is no one's doing that. Can I do that? We're doing this analysis, let me help. We're preparing for this investment, what can I do? And I think that's kind of the start of how all of my roles have morphed into the next job or the bigger job because I tend to be one of those people that sees look at these opportunities or these pieces of work no one's doing. I'll just kind of wrap that into my job. Thank you very much and continue on the expert.

    Camilla Love

    Ding ding.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Exactly.

    Camilla Love

    So then talk to me about your time with the regulator here in Australia because it's a really interesting I know from our previous conversations you've had a really interesting time there, looking at cyber securityecurity and looking at all the outcomes from the Royal Commission and stuff like that. How was that role such a learning experience for you?

    Katharine Goulstone

    It's a great question and let me tell you when we eventually came back to Australia, and we've probably skipped about ten years, but yes, when we did come back to Australia, I was given the opportunity to join Asik on a twelve month contract. And at the time I was not particularly tempted by having spent the last kind of 15 years or so, kind of like right in the forefront of capital markets. But they had quite an interesting opportunity that I decided to take for a year as a foray back into Australia, which was really around the time that Asik was assuming the responsibility of supervising listed markets from the ASX. So prior to that time that was the responsibility of the Australian Stock Exchange and Trix, as you'd be aware of your line of entering the market. Yeah. So that shift from a monopoly to a duopoly meant it wasn't appropriate for the ASEX to be conducting real time surveillance. And so asik in taking on that responsibility, needed to make sure that they have the right capability and were ready to undertake and discharge those regulatory obligations. And so my role was really around supporting that very large project team that was enabling that to happen.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And my area of focus was really around the capability of people. Did ASIC folks on the ground have the right knowledge and capability and capacity to deliver on that. And so I thought it'd be a short and sharp project. And I have to tell you, I look back and I would say working in government and working in particularly in regulation, is such an extraordinary privilege and I'm so glad I got the opportunity to do that in my career. It's high stakes and it's important work and that's a big deal and it's a great responsibility and I really didn't appreciate that until I joined Asik. But one of the things that I did find was it's a platform to see an entire industry to think about an issue from an entire market perspective. And this is probably why I'm consulting now, because my view is that's the only other vantage point where you get to kind of sit indeed in the ivory tower and think about an issue from the entire market perspective. And I love it, but that certainly ran true for me at Asik and the role that I had at the time was in the markets business at Asik.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And so that's a big chunk of that particular agency. But in doing that, I started to have observations across other parts of how the agency was discharging its markets business, and they became quite valuable insights to share with the executive at the time. And so, typical Mo for me, I started putting up my hand saying I've identified a few opportunities where we could be doing some really cool stuff, but as that's no one's job, do you mind if I just wrapped that into my job? That played out again where I found myself suddenly owning all of the really juicy projects and it was fabulous. It's fascinating stuff, right?

    Camilla Love

    Oh, it's just filthy cup. Right? Because making sure that consumers are getting the best outcomes and making sure that the regulation is applied evenly across all facets of the industry and even interpreting the legal framework that the regulator has to work in and then embed on all the other participants, I totally understand purpose there. Yeah.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And so it became to me really addictive because every time you finished a piece of work, there would be something else that would pop up that was very exciting. And I find myself back there with my hand up, can I please do this one as well? So I ended up spending after that, I think, the twelve month contract I joined ASIC on. I think after seven years I said, I think I must go now. I'll be forever grateful for that opportunity. I think that the projects I got to work on, the leaders I got to learn from, and the outcomes I got to be a part of, just career changing. And from a growth perspective, I took out of that experience so very much and I'll always look back on that, of what a great privilege it was to be part of that regulator.

    Camilla Love

    I'm going to switch text a little bit here and ask a question that I know I think about all the time, and it's something that a lot of people think about when applying for their job, whether it be their first one or their 10th one. Was there ever a role that you applied for and landed where you weren't 100% qualified to do? And how are you able to sort of deal with the fact that you didn't necessarily tick all ten boxes, you only picked eight of them and you needed to ensure that you are confident enough to take on that role with gusto?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I think for me, if I follow my career history, I think I've always been the underdog and I think I always deliberately I think when I've got to a point in a role where I think, great, I've learnt so much, I've learned what I've come to do here, I must go do something different. It's never been a linear progression for me. I've always been knocking on the door of saying, I've done all this interesting stuff over here to the left, but now I'm inspired to come over here and learn what it is that you can teach me. So I think I'm probably one of the few people that certainly I feel that vulnerability in knocking on that door. But I think I've been quite deliberate in looking deliberately for something I have not done before. And I think that's important for me. I think that's where magic happens, that's when we grow.

    Camilla Love

    And I love the curiosity that you bring into your answer here, because it is about knowing what you know, being confident in what you know, but also being confident in yourself to be able to learn what you don't know, definitely. And it's a hard thing to do to be able to step over that line, to go. I feel comfortable in being uncomfortable, but it's one of those things that you have to do, whether it be for me, it's ice skating. I never want to ice skate, ever. But if my kids ask me to ice skate, it's one of those things that you might want to try to do again that is so comfortable in doing stuff.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Well, we should definitely go ice skating.

    Camilla Love

    That's the best thing. Or maybe it's a stand up paddleboard like we've known before.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I think every time there's a confidence you get in solving problems that are new. And I think because I've made a career out of that, I don't want to solve the problem that we've solved ten times before and have the template for. I want to work on our biggest problem, the one that's so complex that our clients are bringing it to us because they need someone and a team of people with a diversity of skills to pick it apart and build a solution that's fit for purpose. And I think that's the thinking that I value. And I'm very confident looking at things I've not looked at before and saying, okay, great. These are the skills and experience and the knowledge that I bring to this problem. Therefore, the other skills and experiences that we need to bring to this team are the following. I want to work with people that have the skill gaps that I have. I want to learn from them, no matter what level they are, but I want them working on the team to get the right outcome. But it is interesting that we don't always think about our careers in that way.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Sometimes I think we do put this pressure on ourselves and it's kind of the old private school boy mentality of we must be an excellent individual and celebrate that. I just kind of think if you want to do complex work, that's never going to be the answer.

    Camilla Love

    And it's always the answer is always sort of dirty anyway. Like there's never one silver bullet, one round peg in a round hole in those ideas. And so being able to have confidence in yourself, to be able to go into that unknown is important. And really going in there and. Getting that crazy big, hairy problem, shaking it upside down and pulling it apart and then putting it back together with a better solution. In reality, I think that when you're going through that job and you're not ticking 100%, there's always it's never going to be 100%, regardless. You're never going to tick the ten boxes because you're working with different people in a different organisation, dealing with different products or services or whatever it is, so therefore you're not necessarily going to tick every one of those boxes anyway.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Exactly. And, you know, I think leaders of organisations, and I think in financial services as well, I think we've come a long way in embracing diversity and truly, I mean, we've got a long way to go, right, but truly embracing diversity. And I think in our organisation, we've been working quite hard to think about that from a number of different facets. But one of the things I've observed we're doing, and I love it, is thinking about what are the skill sets we want to bring into our organisation? And I think if you had gone back five years ago, ten years ago, professional services firms would have only hired at the graduate level. And there's kind of one way up, right, and I think if you went back five years ago, there's these lateral hires and graduate hires, but people would have brought in the financial services space, would have come from the small handful of Pedigree universities with the same types of degrees. And what we've found is that obviously those people are invaluable, but they really have a diversity of thought. You need to tap into talent pools way beyond those traditional hiring methods.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And I think last week I had a coffee with a fabulous graduate in our team who's a chemical engineer.

    Right.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And I just thought it was fascinating. We're taking a diversity of people from different parts of their career, from different parts of the industry, and certainly we can train people to be consultants, but you can't train people to think differently. Right. Like, where we have the mindset, we have the perspectives we have based on the experiences that we've had today. And I think that's a very rich, rich source of talent for us. So I think we think about that collectively, but I think, as individuals, you're right. I think when we're still that one individual tapping on the door of that next job, there is sometimes those times where you say, oh, but they want these eight things and I only have six of them, I'm going to go.

    Camilla Love

    For that job anyway, is what Catherine would say.

    Katharine Goulstone

    If you got six out of the eight, you're overqualified and make sure you're telling about all the other things that you have, because they don't even know yet that they need it.

    Camilla Love

    Absolutely. And by the way, they are the bomb, those things. Totally the bomb.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Exactly.

    Camilla Love

    So I always ask this question and everyone has a slightly different answer, which I think is great. What is the most valuable piece of advice you've been given in your career and why? And maybe it's just the time that that advice was given, or maybe it's just that just embedded in your brain sticks with you. Why was so important?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I love this question and in fact, I've got two, so I hope that's okay.

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, sure.

    Katharine Goulstone

    The first one was actually a piece of advice that was given to me years ago by someone you introduced me to.

    Camilla Love

    Who was it?

    Katharine Goulstone

    Lewis Bierman. Oh, Lord. Yeah. And he probably doesn't even remember this conversation, but you introduced him to me at a time, I think, after we finished our MBA together. And I was reflecting on what I wanted to do and he very kindly met with me and gave me a number of great pieces of advice, but one of them is burnt in my brain and it's so simple, but it's just run true for me. And that advice was, be excellent always. People on this tiny island have a very long memory, and I just thought it was great advice because you know what? Australia is a very tiny island, and financial services, no matter how big and how diversity is, you will come across the same people 20 times for 20 different reasons. And people do have those long memories. And I think the people that make a point of being excellent always do a great job, be proud of the work that you do because it will support you and hold you in good stead. Totally.

    Camilla Love

    And it's something also that one of the last seasons, Alex Mcquick and she mentioned about, don't underestimate the mediocracy of others. And I think that perfectly goes together because you actually do want to be excellent always. You want to have that last impression, be the first impression every single time.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Exactly. The second one I thought of, and it makes me laugh still thinking about it. And I go back to that first hedge fund role I had in London and there was a fabulous very senior trader that came to join our business, and he came from one of the major investment banks and he was a very senior hire. And the week he started, he was just getting to know people on the team. And we sat down and he had his big American personality for California personality and accent, and he just asked me this one question off the bat and it threw me and he's like So, Catherine, there are two types of people in this world. There's people who get shit done and people who don't. Which one are you?

    Camilla Love

    I know, I know.

    Katharine Goulstone

    What do you think my answer was, Camilla?

    Camilla Love

    Oh, let me think about that. Probably the same answer that I have. We're both getting shit done type of people.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Exactly. And for me, I think that was a really powerful question because it did for me plant a seed in my mind as very early on in my career. You know what, I really want to be recognised as that person that just gets shit done.

    Camilla Love

    Doesn't matter how big or small.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Here's the job, I'm going to go get it done. And so I think it's probably why today I have such an execution bias. What's the problem? Okay, let's start to imagine the solution. When am I exactly going to get there? And let's make sure we get there on that date. I definitely am wired that way and I think probably because of that statement.

    Camilla Love

    Okay, well, at least you know that's your bias. Yes, because I have the same. So a lot of feedback is camellia. You know where you're going, you're 100 miles ahead of everybody else, but you need to take everybody else on the journey.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Quite true.

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. Indeed. Well, I think they're absolutely fabulous pieces of advice. And big shout out to Louis Bamboo out there because he's just fab too. So we're at the end and we could probably chatting forever and ever, as I know you and I could do. Definitely.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Absolutely.

    Camilla Love

    So we do this quick buy around. At the end it is. Tell me who you are. First thing that pops into your head, you prepare, ready to go. Okay. Shares or shoes?

    Katharine Goulstone

    Both. Why would you have just one perfect.

    Camilla Love

    Answer, one piece of advice? I tell my 20 year old self.

    Katharine Goulstone

    You know what, I would not sorry, this is quick fire round, but I would not give my 20 year old self any advice because I needed to figure it out myself and I did.

    Camilla Love

    That's just so good. Making mistakes and grow from it, that is so good. If I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a surfing instructor, I'd be a ski instructor. So we could swap seasonal, we could.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Be each other students.

    Camilla Love

    So then this one follows on from that maybe autumn, winter, summer or spring, summer. What weird or out of place thing do you have in your handbag right now?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I have several Matchbox cars in my.

    Camilla Love

    Handbag right now, just in case you want to zoom down the street.

    Katharine Goulstone

    I think it probably just donations from my youngest child. Biggest investment mistake, mixing family and investment together.

    Camilla Love

    That comes with a whole load of other story. Right?

    Katharine Goulstone

    Well, probably. I just think one of my reflections is it's really important to kind of help families financially and support each other, but you shouldn't mistake that with investment choices.

    Camilla Love

    Full stop on that one. What is the most important money lesson you've learnt?

    Katharine Goulstone

    Start small, think big.

    Camilla Love

    That's what we say here. It shows no shoes. My friends would describe me as noisy. That's it.

    Katharine Goulstone

    I'm really nervous with the words that you would use to describe Meg Miller as one of my dear friends.

    Camilla Love

    Noisy is the only one.

    Katharine Goulstone

    This is the quick fire around, I think you'll find.

    Camilla Love

    True. You're telling me my own rules. What two things would you take if you were deserted on an island?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I would take an axe. That feels quite important. I might need to cut trees or fetch coconuts.

    Camilla Love

    Yeah.

    Katharine Goulstone

    And I would need a hobby. I'd take a home brew kit.

    Camilla Love

    What are we making in our home brew kit? Is it gin, vodka or beer?

    Katharine Goulstone

    I probably say beer. I think if I could cut down my trees and make a fire and enjoy a glass of beer, I think my life on the deserted island is probably set.

    Camilla Love

    Let's think about hate. We're going to get you weak barley.

    Katharine Goulstone

    See, this is what I hate about you. You're so practical. Never let the details get in the way of a great plan.

    Camilla Love

    Camilla no, true. But as person in risk, you should know that the details will trip you up. So the final one is describe in three words why career in finance is super awesome.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Dynamic, changing, lifelong.

    Camilla Love

    Great. Well, thank you for this fun and hopefully uplifting and inspiring podcast. And I just love the stories of dad being a pontrader and Mum being a nurse and how that's come to really impact why you've chosen finance as a career for you. I love the curiosity that you bring to all your roles because I think that is something that more people could do more with and it's a really big lesson for me that I've taken away from today. Catherine, that's super, super awesome for you to join us all on. Cheers. I hope you'll come back.

    Katharine Goulstone

    Thanks for having me. Camilla.

    Camilla Love

    You know the information that is in this podcast, we always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about out career advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S3.Ep2 Bianca Richardson on How Taking Risks & Having a Positive Mindset Can Excel Your Career

Meet Bianca. Bianca Richardson is a Senior Search Consultant at Westpac.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.

    Bianca Richardson

    Because I always took the view of if I can understand the process, I can apply that to any other topic if I can understand the framework.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome, everyone back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes an Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host, camilla Love, founder of F. Three future females in finance. Chersal Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go.

    Camilla Love

    In today's episode of Shares Not Shoes, we are joined by someone who has a role that truly changes the course of the investment management industry here in Australia every day. And there's not that many people who can say that they can do that in their role. Not only does she have a law degree and is formerly our financial advisor, but she's also won awards for her advocacy for better regulation of the industry. Welcome Bianca Richardson.

    Bianca Richardson

    Thank you, Camilla. That was very nice and very generous of you.

    Camilla Love

    I am super keen to find out.

    Camilla Love

    How you started in finance, all the twists and turns that you've had in your career, because I think that you've changed and pivoted quite a lot and I really want to delve into those and I'm really keen to find out.

    Camilla Love

    How you can find purpose in your role today.

    Camilla Love

    And I know through the intro that you really do have your thumb on.

    Camilla Love

    The really important issues that hits the investment management industry and finance in general on behalf of the FSC members. But we'll come back to that. So thanks for joining us. To start off, Bianca, tell me a little bit about you, who you are and what you do in your role.

    Bianca Richardson

    So I've had a very interesting Korean financial services and I think my story is not like many other people who I've talked to over the years, which is I fell into financial services. It wasn't the first career choice in that I initially went to university, I had visions of being a psychologist, studied Bachelor of Arts in psychology, decided I wasn't quite ready to finish uni and go into my career for the next 2030 years, and then did a law subject, really enjoyed commercial law, did well at it, and then decided that I was going to be a lawyer. Now, having successfully completed commercial law and unincorporated associations and trusts, when I saw a job ad come up for a corporations lawyer at a financial services firm, I did a very bold thing. And now I look back at it and I think, I can't believe I did that. But I'm so glad I did. And I applied for the role of the corporate lawyer and said, I'd like to apply for this position. Unfortunately, I don't meet your requirements. But I did just get a HD in commercial law and in unincorporated associations and trust.

    Bianca Richardson

    Will you give me a role? And surprisingly, four weeks later, the CEO of that advice business and the head of legal call me in for an interview. And I started working there as a corporate legal assistant, so similar to a paralegal within the legal team. And then that kind of side of my career in financial services.

    Camilla Love

    That is so good because you hear.

    Camilla Love

    Stories all the time about girls who go, I don't tick every ten points of the job ad, so therefore I'm not going to do only pick nine of them. And in this circumstance, you tick and then I'm going to go for it anyway. Love that. What made you think about doing that?

    Camilla Love

    Do you just take a risk?

    Camilla Love

    What is it?

    Bianca Richardson

    I have to give a lot of credit to my dad. My dad was very much a believer in inspiring his kids. I have a brother and a sister and he used to encourage us to read the Finn Review and he gave us books about thinking positively and having a growth mindset. So Napoleon Hill think and grow rich. Bridge dad, Poor dad.

    Camilla Love

    You had a book list like this.

    Bianca Richardson

    Longset and being Positive and Shoot for the Stars. And so I've been working in hospitality while still at university, didn't like the late nights and the weekends, and I thought, I'd really like to be able to get some work experience before I finish my degree. And I just went for it and I thought, what's the worst that could happen?

    Camilla Love

    What's the worst that could happen?

    Camilla Love

    I still got a job.

    Bianca Richardson

    Yes, well, much better. It led to basically my career in financial services. That one job ad.

    Camilla Love

    So do you give that advice to.

    Camilla Love

    All those girls out there who think they only tick eight out of the ten? You like, Just throw your hat in the ring.

    Bianca Richardson

    Anyway, that's key. Absolutely key. That's the first step. You have to at least be in the game, and so you should have a go. And it's been interesting. I've also had a very short sense as a recruiter. I had a year living in the UK. And on the recruitment side, you can see that you're really looking at, do people fit the box and pick all the criteria in order to even get someone through the first hurdle? But over the years, what I've also learned in business is what actually is more important is attitude, because you can teach someone the skills and the technical aspects. And so even if you don't fit the box, I would encourage people to put your receiving in, pick up the phone, have the conversation, go and meet people and get yourself out there, because you actually don't know what opportunities will arise. And I'm casting point for that.

    Camilla Love

    That is a superb answer because it just gives so much joy and opportunity and somebody else did it. Somebody else did it. So I have a funny story that actually somebody egged me on or suggested that I needed a mentor and that I should really start from the top.

    Camilla Love

    And so I wrote to Gail Kelly.

    Camilla Love

    She was the CEO of Westpac at the time, and said, hey Gail, will you be my mentor?

    Camilla Love

    She came back and said, no, but.

    Camilla Love

    I tell you what I know from.

    Camilla Love

    Subsequent conversations with people I've met along.

    Camilla Love

    The way, that question was actually discussed in executive meeting with Gail in it and whether she should be my mentor or not. And again, the answer was no. But I tell you what, you've got to be in it to win it. You've got to ask, you've got to put yourself forward. So tell me about what you do today.

    Bianca Richardson

    My role is a policy role, which means that I work with our fund manager members to really shape the future of what our industry looks like. We might identify an issue or a problem that we would like to solve in the broader funds management industry and we might come up with a policy position. One of the pieces of work that I've been really enjoying working on and that I met you, Camilla through is the work of trying to improve gender diversity in investment management and trying to get more women into roles of running money. Women are underrepresented and we all know the benefits of diversity and we've been looking at this issue. And so as a collective in policy development, for example, we came together with our members, saw that we have a problem here that we'd like to address, and then really explored how can we support business and how can we support industry to help shift the dial in a meaningful way. And then we've developed some resources that businesses can use, guidance notes and suggestions around what things to look for when they're recruiting people, what policies help with retention of staff, and then gone the next step from developing guidance to developing a charter where firms who want to shift the dial can sign up to the charter.

    Bianca Richardson

    They track how they're going around gender diversity in those investment management roles and then hopefully over time, they will be able to see that they're increasing the female representation in their relevant teams. And so you get to do some really practical things like that, as well as participate in regulatory reform if the government or the regulators such as ASIC is looking at changing the way they regulate the industry. In the work that I do, we can basically use all of the knowledge and the insights from all of our members to develop provisions and make recommendations for how we can basically shape the future landscape of the industry.

    Camilla Love

    That landscape of the industry has changed substantially.

    Camilla Love

    I've been in the industry for nearly 20 years, and I know that the Financial Services Council has been really at the forefront of guiding the industry through.

    Camilla Love

    A lot of regulatory change.

    Camilla Love

    And we've seen a lot of stuff, whether it be through the Banking Royal Commissions or changing advice rules, even through.

S3.Ep1 Risk Management Is at The Heart of All Business with Sam Mosse

Meet Sam. Sam Mosse is the Chief Risk Officer at Perpetual.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.

    Sam Mosse

    Everyone's a risk manager, so everyone actually needs to be able to understand risk.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome, everyone back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes an Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host, camilla Love, founder of F. Three future females in finance. Chersal Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go. I'm really looking forward to chatting with our guests today, as she has one of what I believe is the most interesting roles in the funds management industry at an organisation and brand that is synonymous with the Australian funds management industry, this fabulous person holds the role of Chief Risk Officer. And as you all know, risk is critical for any type of return in business, but it's the management of risk and taking calculated risk that creates true business success. So, without much ado, welcome today to Sam Mosse.

    Sam Mosse

    Thanks, Camilla, it's really great to be here. And thanks for that very generous welcome.

    Camilla Love

    No problem, it's all very true. Sam is the Chief Risk Officer at Perpetual and Perpetual is a fund manager that's been established since 1886. Oh, my gosh, that is so long. And I don't know, a lot of companies have been around for that long and the business today manages nearly $100 billion. So I'm super keen to find out about your career, what makes you tick and why you bound out of bed each morning to do your role in risk. So, thanks so much for joining us in today's episode, Sam. So, first question, Sam, tell me a little bit about what you do and a little bit about you as a person.

    Sam Mosse

    So I'll start with this second one. So, a little bit about me as a person. So, I'm a mom, firstly, and I have two what are adult children by age still progressing into adulthood? More generally, I would say I have had a background. I started my career as a chartered accountant and then really have since sort of over gosh, I think it's about 2028 years now, which means I'm very old. I have had various risk compliance, governance, management and operational roles within the financial services industry. And as you say right now, my current role is as Chief Risk Officer for Perpetual, which is, as you say, asexlifted top 200 company, a diversified financial services company. And in my role, I look after the legal, governance, risk and compliance frameworks, but really is about bringing new perspectives, often quite technical from a legal or a regulatory or risk perspective, ultimately to be helping make good decisions, which is essentially what successful businesses do most of the time and where they don't they are reassessing them within an appropriate time frame. So I'd say I spend a lot of my time, I sit on a lot of boards across our different businesses and a lot of committees where essentially I am asking a lot of questions.

    Sam Mosse

    My favourite thing actually ask me that would be is asking questions to really get to the heart of the matter and sometimes there can be not enough of that getting right into what's really important and what is really going to have the most impact. So yeah, I spend a lot of my day asking questions, being asked questions as well. That's obviously really important but really driving decision making.

    Camilla Love

    Risk is a really important part of managing a funds management business or a business generally, but really particularly in finance. So where are the burgeoning risks that you are finding in today's funds management business?

    Sam Mosse

    So obviously it's a great time to be talking about risk and managing risk. Clearly there are a lot of geopolitical type risks going on at the moment that really need to be factored in to every sort of decision making and obviously that the degree of impact geopolitical risks have on your business depends very much on the nature of your business but one of the areas we're quite focused on or very focused on at the moment is ESG related risks or sustainability risks is another way of saying it and in many ways ESG is what I call in my usual non technical style a super risk. It really is triggering a lot of the different underlying risks. So for example the one that everyone talks about is obviously climate related type risks, whether they be the physical risks or the risks relating to the transition to sustainable economy. But equally ASG risks are really triggering people related risks. So employees want to work for companies whose values very much align with their values and it's important that from a retention and an attraction of talent perspective that your companies are thinking about sustainability of the corporate and of course in our case as a wealth manager and asset manager we embed ESG into our investment decision making as well and obviously that's not just on the risk side but obviously on the upside.

    Sam Mosse

    So the riskadjusted returns that we're always thinking about from an investment perspective. But yeah, ESG and sustainability risks definitely. Probably if I had to pick one area of focus right now it would be the one that everyone's talking about.

    Camilla Love

    Absolutely everyone's talking about it and we've spoken about a number of times within the Shares not Shoes podcast but mainly from an investment point of view. So it's interesting to see how you as a non investment person is really looking at that same risk but with a different lens and how it impacts your business and talent is really an interesting one because there is such a war for talent out there. So it's great that you're addressing that through a different lens and embedding that within the business because I think you're right that it is absolutely a critical risk that everyone is really addressing. So you mentioned early on that you started where really many graduates actually do start in one of the big four and in particularly an audit. Why was this a really good starting ground for you and why would you recommend this as a way of graduates starting into their journey in finance?

    Sam Mosse

    It's a great question and I think for me, finance and accounting and they're very interlink, it's sort of the language of business, isn't it? It doesn't matter what industry you're in, you have to understand the finances of your business and accounting is obviously how they flow through the records and the books of the business. And so great, it gives you the ability, the skill to really be able to understand any business in that common language of the financials. I actually think everyone broad statement, but everyone should do some bit of finance and account. Both of them actually finance and accounting learning in their careers. I don't think that's limited to people who are having a career in finance. I actually think it's any industry to really understand the workings and coming back to that decision making, how to make decisions as well. For me, actually fell into it in many ways was sort of preordained. My father was a chartered accountant and I loved math and economics and commerce at school, they were my favourite subjects and I fell into accounting and I took up a scholarship. That was what was then KPMG, sorry, Pete Marlin became KPMG and that sort of got me started, but I thought it was such a great background just to be able to speak the language of business.

    Camilla Love

    And then quickly after that you sort of moved directly into risk. Was that a decision or did you fall into a long stint at Macquarie looking at different bits and pieces in risk and compliance?

    Sam Mosse

    My first job at Macquarie was actually in internal audit and so as an external auditor, I was pretty keen to say goodbye to my auditing days and quite funny story. So I applied for this ad at Macquarie and I don't in any way want to infer that Macquarie were misleading. But the ad did not mention internal audit. Which I think is actually quite a good joke because on the face of it. I would have thought. No. I don't want to go keep doing audit. But actually I went to have a lunch with the head of internal audit at that time and the way that he spoke about the learning ground. That was what was then risk management division at Macquarie and the ability to see all of the different businesses. He actually talked me into taking the role again. I've had a career of learning and in those days. Risk management was just starting. So at a bank they had your typical credit risk people and we obviously had all the dealing desks, so we had very much a big market risk team, but from a regulatory risk, from us it's a compliance and from an operational risk, governance risk, reputational risk, conduct risk, all the risks that have come out since then, they weren't even functions back then.

    Sam Mosse

    So that's really where I was sort of another learning journey for me of actually not only seeing all the different parts of Macquarie but also becoming interested in all the different types of risks that are out there and the very large impact that that can have. It was always something that was very much central to Macquarie's model of understanding, not just the big returns that were available, but were those returns adequate for the risk. And so to me, risk management is everyone's job because it's actually just the other side of any decision risk reward, cost benefit. So I always have understood the importance of risk and how it's everyone's job. Now, granted, it is quite technical and that's why we have specialists, but certainly from the time I started in my career in risk really have always known that it's fundamental to success.

    Camilla Love

    Absolutely. It's an area where there's huge demand for jobs out there in the industry but it's not the first area that everyone thinks of when they think of finance. Why do you think there's that dichotomy there? Because I think risk and managing risk is really interesting, as you say, it is the flip side of getting a good return in business. But why isn't it everyone's first point of call for their jobs?

    Sam Mosse

    What a great question. If I could just make a definite plan certainly I think probably it's a history thing, I think back in the day, certainly not where I've been, the firms that I've worked for, and I wouldn't have worked for these firms if it was the case. But risk can have been seen as the handbrake, the handbrake to happiness. It's a term that I think people have heard of, may have heard of, so that was where risk was very much about the no police and no, we can't do that, it's too risky. And so it's always sort of people didn't come to risk offices until the proverbial had hit the fan and it was time to clean it up. Whereas actually, what a modern risk function, what a modern risk officer is about is actually the upside, it is about protecting the downside but it's actually more importantly about maximising that upside. So yeah, I think it's probably had a bad brand. I can say that as a career choice and perhaps it's been seen as something that's shoved in the corner and not really central, but actually it's quite the opposite to that.

    Sam Mosse

    The beauty of it is that it's part of every single decision, so it bans the entire organisation. There's no part that we don't get to be involved in and to learn about. And I think of my team and a career in risk as actually sort of a great breeding ground as well, to see, as I did at Macquarie, to see the whole of the business and then to make a decision as to if you might not want to stay in risk forever. But as I say, everyone's a risk manager, so everyone actually needs to be able to understand risk in terms of being able to make good decisions. So, yeah, I think it's probably just that whole bad image and we just need to be getting out there a bit more to actually sell it as a brilliant career, either short term or long term. But, yeah, it's involved in everything and there's not a day goes by that I'm not learning still and that's what I'm passionate about and it's what you really want to have in terms of when you choose a career and indeed a company that you can keep growing, keep learning, keep growing.

    Camilla Love

    From what I've heard, Australians actually manage risk at a really high level globally. Like, they're actually quite well renowned as risk managers globally. And from what I understand, the actual ISO standards actually based on original Australian standards. And I know there's some great university courses in Australia that are well renowned globally on looking at risks specifically, which, given that Australia is all the way down here in the world, it's quite interesting to see that we actually produce some really high quality risk managers out there, particularly in finance, which I think is just a good plug for us Aussies down here. So just changing tack a little bit. Looking back on your career, is there a moment that actually sticks in your head that you're either most proud of or you've made a decision that really had a different trajectory that you were really successful at? Was there something that you want to talk to us about that makes you happy?

    Sam Mosse

    A lot of my proud moments relate to the people in my team and the things that they've gone on subsequently to do, but some of the moments where I've made sort of deviated from what might have been expected. And frankly, I'm a bit of a planner, or a lot of a planner, if I'm honest. And I think about it, I think, wow, that's pretty cool. I wouldn't have predicted that I'd done that and gee, I learned a lot. So the first one was actually after I left Macquarie. I went and I had a career break from finance for a couple of years and I worked in the creative space. Actually an interior stylist and interior designer. And that was really pretty cool. Firstly. Because I got to rock up in jeans and Converse sneakers every day and just go to some really cool spaces that they work in. Rosebury in this really cool warehouse, but anyway, so totally different physical sort of world, but just so different as well. It seriously was like going to a different universe. And I'd come out of finance where we've got so much jargon, but actually they've got just as much jargon in their world as well.

    Sam Mosse

    But the thing even stuff like we'd be working on IBM computers because they are powerful and best for Excel and most compatible with Microsoft and stuff. But over in the creative space back then anyway, it was Apple Macintosh all around that I actually bought my first Mac and they're really good with Photos and I got onto Instagram, so that was really good. But I suppose that the point of the story. Really. Is that it was a small business where you're living every day to day. Every dollar matters and you really have to and I really appreciated my knowledge of understanding accounting and finance and realising really at the cold base almost what it's like when you have to be managing your cash flow. You have to be thinking about decisions in terms of when is this actually going to pay off and are we going to make it? I think it's something like one in three small businesses fail in the first year of their life. I suppose what I'm saying, it was great to go into this different world and sort of see how important the language of finance and accounting is and in this small business space where actually often they don't necessarily have that good understanding of numbers in finance.

    Sam Mosse

    And so that was pretty cool. And I came back into finance after that, actually, with an appreciation of the role that our industry plays across all the broader economy in terms of delivering services and expertise. The second sort of thing I would say experience, I would say, was when I came back out of Semi, call Semiretireirement in the creative space, I actually was employee number three at Henderson in Australia. So Henderson at the time was a very large, prominently European asset manager and they had decided it was time to start the business in Australia. And what was unique about that was coming from where I'd had a team of 60 people at Macquarie coming to be employee number three and having to really roll up the sleeves and do stuff again. It was a really humbling, really cool experience as well. But having that blank sheet of paper and I was actually working with a colleague, ex colleague from Macquarie, had tapped me on the shoulder for that role. We sat there and we said, let's bring all the really from a cultural perspective, as we start to hire people and build relationships with suppliers and launch products and do all these things, let's really think about the culture, the elements about culture that we've loved during our career.

    Sam Mosse

    And that was very much around being able to be yourself at work and ask the questions without fear of looking stupid and really just being your authentic self at work and leave some of the stuff that perhaps we might have seen that wasn't so great. And really that blank sheet of paper experience is something that not everyone gets, but it just really makes you focus in on what's important to you in terms of where you work and what really drives and motivates you when you are at work. And for me, it's working for a company where the values align, right, so that you talk to the very beginning about what gets you out of bed in the morning. And for me, it's knowing that I don't have to come to work and be this person that I'm not at home and I can just be myself and be as smart or as stupid as I am on any day and just encourage transparency. I suppose so, yeah. There were a couple of moments where I think, wow, I wouldn't have plotted that out in my little plan at the start, but actually I learn a lot out of both of those.

    Camilla Love

    It's never the straight line, is it? Right. It's always that graph of the circular line of the trajectory of your career versus the straight line that you plan it to actually be. It never ends up being like that. And the luxury of starting with a blank sheet of paper and getting the diversity of team right, and as you mentioned, culture right, it's not a lot of times that anyone really gets that opportunity because you're either going in as part of an old team that's already been there for a long time, so you inherit what somebody else has already planned. So, yeah, it's quite luxurious, I think, to be able to start from scratch and build it as the way that you want it to be. Now, on the flip side of that is we always learn from things, particularly when the chips are down and things have gone skew. If in your career is there a moment where you can think of that you go, yes, I learned a lot from either a mistake or something that might not have gone the way you wanted it to?

    Sam Mosse

    Yes, definitely, I will limit it to one or more. You've got to learn from mistakes. You're not trying hard enough if you don't make mistakes. But certainly I would summarise it by I took a role that was working for someone whose values didn't align to mine, and I took it because it was something different and certainly a challenging area. It was a bit of a cleanup job, certainly was a clean up job, and that was all good, and I learned a lot from that. But ultimately, something that I've stayed true to my whole career, except for in this moment, is to really pick who you work for. So you've got a choice in who you work for. And in this case, as I say the values were different. I'm not saying who's were better or not or worse, but certainly there wasn't that alignment of values and I did end up doing the job and then leaving. So I thought afterwards, yeah, there's no use having regrets, right? No, that's just wasted energy. So I reflected back on what I'd learned. As I said, it was something different and I learned a lot. I worked with some really great people in my team, but at the end of the day, you need to work for leaders who you have a value alignment with, and I've not done that in this case.

    Camilla Love

    And how do you find that out? Because generally you're only sitting through two, three, maybe four interviews with various people within the organisation, and values is really something you can only see once you're in it. Are there any flags that you think of when you reflect on that that you could have picked up on beforehand?

    Sam Mosse

    Yeah, well, I mean, in this case it was an internal move and so I really didn't have any excuses. But you're right, it's a great question in terms of people, listeners, I suppose, certainly do your research sometimes. I'm doing a lot of interviews at the moment. As you would imagine. And sometimes it surprises and frankly disappoints me when the candidate hasn't actually looked at the company and there's actually a lot of information. Especially if you're talking about listed companies. It's a bit more tricky in the private space. But there's still a lot on the internet that you can find about the principles of the company and by that I mean the leaders of the company and the principles and values of the company both ways. And so I think you just really need to ensure that you do your research for any role. Don't think just in terms of a role, thinking of short term, that's a great role. I think you need to be a bigger picture than that and think about the actual, the firm that you're working with, the team that you're working with. Do research in terms of looking at what they've achieved and the types of decisions that you can see that they've made.

    Sam Mosse

    And frankly, there's actually quite a lot of information you can gain from a website these days. And if I take sustainability, for example, is that something that is you're quite passionate about and you want to work for a firm? They should have a sustainability report or information about their approach to that on their website and that's something that you can look for and make sure that you feel like they are going in the direction that you want to go. So, yeah, I agree, it is challenging a couple of interviews, but I think you need to do more than that. I think you need to do your research ahead of making what is a really important decision in terms of a career choice or a job choice.

    Camilla Love

    So one of my last question I always ask is, what is the best career advice you've ever been given? And why particularly? And sometimes it's always in the moment, why it was important to you at that time.

    Sam Mosse

    So we touched on it already in terms of work for a firm whose value because ultimately you need to be happy, right? You can't have a job that makes you miserable. And I think for me, happiness means that you need to work for a company whose values align to yours, but also you need to make sure that your manager is someone that the job of the leader is to enable success of the team. And so if you feel like that isn't something that's happening, then you need to put up your hand and have a conversation. Don't assume that managers are mind readers, because they're not and they don't have super powers, so you need to have a conversation. There's nothing to lose from having a conversation. If you're not happy anyway, then maybe you leave or whatever, but you don't want to not actually have had the conversation and put forward your ideas and suggestions about how things could work differently and how they could be enabling you more. So I think don't be afraid to put forward your ideas and talk about how you think that you could be doing something differently or be doing more, et cetera.

    Sam Mosse

    So I would say that I also have been told at various points in my career and encouraged, and I've had some pretty good sponsors and mentors, but there's been times when I have left off ledgers, but I've also had someone doing this bit more and sort of giving me a bit of a shove and saying, trust yourself and so back yourself a bit more. And I suppose that's what I said. I sort of say, talk to people. So if you're feeling unsure about a potential opportunity and as women, sometimes females can underestimate themselves in terms of not ticking all the boxes, we hear about that a lot. So to sort of overcome that, because as I say, we're going to be ourselves. So in my case, I've spoken to people and I've tested things and I said, look, this is how I'm feeling and I'm not sure if I can do this, frankly. And I've had people that have said, yeah, it's a bit of a challenge, but you can totally do it, you're a planner, so make a plan for how to address some of those learning gaps or knowledge gaps or experience gaps.

    Sam Mosse

    And I suppose the summary of all of that Miller, is really talk to people and people are afraid of archive, mentor, various people, some more formal and some less formal. Don't be afraid to ask for help, don't be a martyr, I suppose, and don't make decisions in your head. More in the fishboard, right, exactly. And more introverted, analytical style. People might be a lot in their head, but actually they need to talk to people to get a different perspective and make a better decision.

    Camilla Love

    Well, that's fabulous. And I think that that's some really important advice out there and I might take a few of those. So, at the end of each episode, Sam, we do this sort of quick fire round. Have you listened to any of the podcasts? So you know I love a podcast. Okay, good. So you know what you're getting into, right? So you have to say whatever's coming out of your brain at the time, right? There's no planning on this. Okay, sure. So you ready to go?

    Sam Mosse

    Hit me.

    Camilla Love

    Okay. If I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a chef. A chef.

    Sam Mosse

    I'm not saying I'm good at it, no guarantee that would be a good one, but I would enjoy it. Yes.

    Camilla Love

    Okay, good. Are you a baker or like what's?

    Sam Mosse

    Not so much baking, actually. More savoury, so sort of love spices and flavours and mixing together.

    Camilla Love

    What's your go to dish?

    Sam Mosse

    I would say baked salmon with lots of fresh coriander and ginger. Probably Asian influences. Quite a bit of Asian.

    Camilla Love

    I'll come to your place for dinner, I'll just invite myself along. What useless thing are you really talented at?

    Sam Mosse

    I can remember. It's so weird. I can forget whether I put the washing in the dryer, but I can remember, like verbatim lyrics to some seventy s and eighty s ballads like Piano Man and things like that. It's just weird. It's totally useless.

    Camilla Love

    Don't worry. I can wrap Ice Ice Baby via vanilla ice without amusing. So I'm totally with you. I'm very talented of that as well. So yeah, quite useless, but quite talented. If you could live in any country, what would it be and why?

    Sam Mosse

    Gosh, I would probably say Japan. That's a bit weird. So I studied Japanese at school and Yoodi and I love everything about their food and their culture and just their way of being and their respect for each other, et cetera. So I'd love to live there.

    Camilla Love

    Great things. Fabulous. And the skiing is great too.

    Sam Mosse

    The skiing is great, yes.

    Camilla Love

    My biggest investment mistake was selling my.

    Sam Mosse

    Macquarie shares too early and I can't even talk about that.

    Camilla Love

    Okay. A bit of a sore spot, everybody, so probably not a good wrong question to ask. Note to self. How is your friends describe you?

    Sam Mosse

    I think they would say organised. I plan a lot of events and things so social and very loyal.

    Camilla Love

    I think that's great. That's quite true, I'm sure. Tell me something that no one else knows about you.

    Sam Mosse

    I'm an identical twin.

    Camilla Love

    Are you?

    Sam Mosse

    Yeah. It is a big part of my personality. We're still very close, but yeah, to all the identical twins out there, you know what I'm saying? It's a pretty amazing shout out to your sister. She would not like me to do that.

    Camilla Love

    Okay, well, hi out there, whoever you. Are, if you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?

    Sam Mosse

    Goodness, that's a hard one. Good one. I want to say one of my favourite people is I'd love to meet Sami Stoza. So I love tennis, personally, and she's amazing, clearly, but more importantly as a leader. And the way she thinks about her team and not herself, I don't know if you've ever noticed in her thankyou speeches, she always talks about us, she never talks about me or I. And I just think that is awesome and inspiring and fabulous.

    Camilla Love

    I absolutely agree. And the way that she played and bowed out from her career in the Aussie Open was just all class, which I think is fabulous. So I look forward to seeing where she goes in the next tranche of what is going to be a fabulous career for her. So on my bucket list is lots more travel.

    Sam Mosse

    There's just so many amazing places in the world that I want to go to. Antarctica, Egypt. I could just list off millions and I just haven't had the time so far. Obviously we've had covered, but I'm really looking forward to spending a lot more time doing that in the future.

    Camilla Love

    I think we all are, so I think we're all in line for that. Okay, my last question describing three words, why a career in finance is awesome?

    Sam Mosse

    Three words. It's dynamic in that it's obviously there's just change happening all the time. It's boundless in terms of limitless, in terms of there's so many different roles and skills that you can acquire in the finance industry and then rewarding. So not just from a money perspective, but just from a learning and challenging, fulfilling perspective. I think it's pretty awesome.

    Camilla Love

    It is super awesome and I'm glad we're all on the same boat there, but thanks, Sam. We've come to the end of the episode and I really appreciate your time and it's been great to hear your journey from Audit to your really important role in Risk Now and how you've moved and navigated that. I love the fact that you went out and you had a bit of out of finance career break and went into the creative realm for a bit. And I love your advice on asking the people for advice and not internally making decisions, and particularly about the value set and the importance of aligning your values with your leaders values as well as the organization's values. I think that is an absolute takeaway that everybody needs to really think about and assess when they're looking at a job, not necessarily in finance at all, but out there. So, super excited to have you on and thank you very much for your great advice here today.

    Sam Mosse

    Absolutely perfect. Miller and thanks so much for asking me to come.

    Camilla Love

    No problem. You know the information that is in this podcast we always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about career's advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S2.Ep5: Never Underestimate me with Alex McGuigan

Meet Alex. Alex is an institutional sales person by trade and is also the Global Development Director for 100 Women in Finance.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome, everyone, back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes, an Insider's guide to careers in Finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of Future Females in Finance. Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview someone of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are. How they came into a career in finance. And arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest. And will inspire you. So let's go. So today, I'm so super excited to introduce you to Alexandra McGuigan. Now, Alex has a fabulous career in finance and is now heading as one of the front people for 100 women in finance. And I have known Alex for at least, I'm thinking eight years. Right. I remember the first time we met, we've got introduced over the email. And I think the two of us have very good mindset about let's put things in the diary and let's get things done. And we're very efficient type people. And I think both of you and I just knew straight away we would be good mates. And I'm Super excited to tell all our listeners about your journey. So, Alex, welcome to Shares Not Shoes.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. And I love the name of Shares Not Shoes. But I do actually think that a career in finance, you can have both Shares and Shoes.

     

    Camilla Love

    Shares and Shoes. It's true. It's true. Because as I always say, I do like a good pair of shoes, but I'm only buying those shoes of the profit I have in my shares. So I invest first and then take my shoes later. Although it's really hard to get back into those high heels after covet and being in, my dear.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    It is. Yeah. I carry my handbag, actually, mostly.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And I think all women in finance do that because they're all tower walking between meetings and then all of a sudden you whip out your shoes. Totally. Yeah. So your finance career will give you good shoes when they Alex.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Absolutely.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. So, Alex, thanks for saying yes, for coming along. And maybe you can give our listeners a bit of an introduction on who you are and a little bit of your background on what you do right now.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Sure. So I am an institutional salesperson by trade, if you will. I have had about 15 years experience in the industry doing that. Raised around two and a half billion dollars in the Australian market, across asset classes and strategies, and have definitely. What do they say pounded the pavement?

     

    Camilla Love

    You warn those shoe leathers out. I broken that many heels.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Broken that many heels. Absolutely. So dumb. Surround me with anybody and everybody who would take a meeting with me ended up raising lots of money. And then I moved to Singapore with my husband in 2018 and we had a small baby at the time and I set up my own company in Singapore and I've been consulting since then. So my company in Singapore is called Am Access Capital, and I currently am the global development director for 100 Women In Finance. And what I'm doing for them is institutionalising their capital raising process. So we can essentially fund the demographic change in the industry from the companies that work in the industry. So I work, I talk to investment banks, asset managers, fund managers, insurance companies, brokerage firms, you name it, I speak to them and I ask them for money. They do.

     

    Camilla Love

    And can I say, there is nothing wrong with asking people for money and a lot of people out there really find it quite uncomfortable, but I dare say, with a bit of practise, it actually becomes easier, right?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Very easy. In fact, don't ask. You don't get as well ask.

     

    Camilla Love

    I live by that mantra totally on anything. Right.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    And then you still don't have what you wanted anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

     

    Camilla Love

    And what's wrong with no? And I always take a no as a maybe and never as a no by you.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Absolutely. They can always change their mind.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, indeed. 100 Women and F Three actually have very sort of similar outcomes and goals, but we're doing it for different ways. So talk to me a little bit about what 100 Women are doing globally.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Okay, so 100 Women In Finance is the largest organisation for the empowerment of women in financial services in the world. We have 28 locations around the world, something like 20,000 registered members, 500 volunteers who really execute. And it's kind of different what we offer our members. So we offer our membership base. What we offer them is probably something similar to maybe like Women in super, where we do bigger events and have keynote speakers, etc. E. And then we have sort of smaller events broken down by the experience level. And then our third pillar is impact. And so with the impact pillar, what we are trying to do is change the demographics of the industry. So for that, we have in our locations that are more senior, if you will, have probably 500 plus members. We host galas and there's a committee that puts on the gala and they put together. It's a fundraising event, really, for the industry. And so all of that money that we raise and we've raised $55 million in the last 20 years. All of that money goes towards investing in the next generation. And what does that mean? We have a grant giving programme.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Because of our global reach, we don't think that we can do everything ourselves and we want to support smaller organisations or organisations that might be geographically specific, like S Three, for example, in the Australian market. And we give funding to those organisations. So they can go out and continue on achieving our vision, which is to have 30% representation of women in senior investment roles and executive leadership positions by 2040. So recipients of that grant, those grants would be currently matched for girls in the UK. And there's one in New York called Girls Who Invest. And then we can also do our own initiatives. And our initiative is because we almost have a bird's eye view of the industry globally. Our initiatives would always be industry facing and bridge the gap between organisations that are looking for students and helping those female students to understand what a career in finance might look like. The different job types, the different companies they might be able to work for, the different countries they might be able to work in, and then helping those students to actually meet those companies and people who work in those companies. So it becomes a real option for them to consider a career in finance.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed, there's a couple of pretty lofty goals in there. Are there areas globally where finances are doing really well on the gender gap and then areas where they aren't?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yes. So the most underrepresented area are women in investment roles and the very senior executive leadership, we call it executive committee, because sometimes the numbers at that very top level can be swayed by women who are working in traditionally female roles and companies can say, oh, well, we've got two women at the top, but they might be the person, the head of HR, global head of HR, or global head of marketing. Right. Because what we want is representation of women across the board. And so we have specifically focused on trying to solve for the most challenging piece of the puzzle, which is getting that investment role, which is currently Bloomberg says it's about 10% of women, our portfolio managers globally, and that number hasn't changed in 20 years. So the reason that we're focusing on this is that historically, actually our fundraising has gone to different philanthropic partners. But in 2019, the board recognised that the demographics hadn't changed. And if they were going to change at all, then there needed to be a concerted effort and we would have to actually invest in making that change. So that's the goal. And it is a lofty goal, but we gave ourselves the time horizon of 20 years because we can work on different initiatives, like grassroots initiatives, getting girls who are still at school, considering careers in finance, helping those who might be, say, studying science or something at University, considering a career in finance.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    So actually transferable skills. We're going to work on initiatives to retain women in that mid career section. So make sure that we're working with companies and make sure that they have a plan to help their women during that child rearing period where it is more difficult. Some countries have high representation in that period, obviously, because there is childcare available. So we see high in Asia where I live now, I'm looking for participation rate of women in financial services firms during that period. It doesn't really drop off that much. It does drop off at the more senior level, though. And so we find that there is a multiplier effect, and this sort of comes into unconscious bias as well, or even conscious bias, really. But if you have women or diversity at the top, you end up having a multiplier effect throughout the organisation. And so that woman will then hire women. Will then hire women. Right. So if we can get more women at the top, more women in the middle, and more women coming through the ranks, then maybe we have a chance.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And both you and I have been in the industry for a long time, and F Three is doing a lot in the grassroots, really on the student side, as you know. And I'm just trying to drive the pipeline. And when I looked at it, I just went, okay, how can I facilitate change inside an organisation? I don't think personally I could. So hence why I decided to start F Three for the pipeline. But I'm glad that 100 women are looking at retaining the senior women and promoting senior women as part of that as well. But you did media at Uni, right? So how did you jump from doing media at Uni into finance? What was the trigger point for you?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Actually, I wanted to be an actress and I did a lot of acting training. I used to do a lot of performances with another girl who was a year ahead of me at school, and she got into Nida and we used to win all of these performances, et cetera. So when she got into Nida, I just assumed that I would get into Nida. Unfortunately, I didn't get into Nida. Well, maybe it was, fortunately, I don't know.

     

    Camilla Love

    Very fortunately. Otherwise we wouldn't know each other, right?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah. Unless I was an amazing famous celebrity.

     

    Camilla Love

    Which is a chance it could be on the rich list and beyond every Marvel episode that's out there unlikely.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Because the chances of that are very slim. I quickly realised that I didn't want to be poor, actually, I had other skills and so I actually did media communications because I was just buying my time until I got into Nida. And then I realised that I had other skills and I should just probably focus on my studies for a little while. And I ended up working. I did an exchange overseas, I came back and I ended up working in the wine industry because my family makes wine, which was super fun. I used to go to all these parties and sponsor fancy parties.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, I should have been wine.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    It was really fun, but it was also a little meaningless. And so after my travel and studying at Cornell, I was like, I really kind of had the travel bug, and I wanted to go overseas again, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do in my career. And I also kind of didn't want to waste that time just sort of sapping about. So I made a plan, and I decided five things that I wanted to achieve in the next five years. And I wanted to complete a postgraduate degree. I wanted to live in another country. I wanted to learn another language. I wanted to buy a property, and I wanted to have a share portfolio. And I went down. I told my dad, and he laughed at me. And I was like, Whatever. I could figure out a way to do this.

     

    Camilla Love

    The whole purpose is you proving up your point to your dad.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Is it always the goal? That's always the goal of everything. So I decided to do an MBA. And I figured out that if I did an MBA at a University that didn't exchange to another country, then I could tick off two of those boxes. And if that other country didn't speak English, then I could take off three of those boxes. So I did that. And then I wanted to buy a property before I left. And so I figured I was going to need money. And where do people make money in finance? So I changed up my CV to suit whatever job. The only job that I was qualified to do in financial services, and that was to be an executive assistant. So I got lucky. And I interviewed with an amazing man who became my mentor and took me under his wing. And he was the managing director of Being by Mellon Asset Management. And he said to me he was an American guy. And he saw that I studied at Cornell, which is an American, I believe, University. And he said, look, you're overqualified for this job. But if you do it and you do it really well, for two years, I'll teach you how to run a business.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    And I was like, that's a pretty good deal.

     

    Camilla Love

    I'll take you on that.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah. And so I ended up getting to shadows this managing director. And literally I learned everything. I learned how to write emails, I learned how to present myself, I learned how to put a roadshow together, I learned how to manage my time. And all of those skills that I learned in that role I still do use every day for sure.

     

    Camilla Love

    And do you still keep in touch with him?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I do.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    And he's based in the States now, not as much as we did in the past, but there's only been a few people that have been as impactful on my life as him. And so after that, he was just flying around the world, winning mandates for $150,000,000. I was just like, this is cool.

     

    Camilla Love

    I want to be like you.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Exactly. And then after that, that's just what I set my mind on. And I was like, I want to do that. And so I ended up studying. I did go to France and I did the exchange, but I actually had to major in international business, but I studied all finance subjects and really was coming from very far behind, but I worked my butt off and here I am.

     

    Camilla Love

    Do you find purpose in the financial services industry? Like, it sounded like you've definitely found that here.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Absolutely. Well, I think that is finance is really interesting, but the subject matter is challenging. Right. So the people are generally quite intelligent and intelligent people have interests other than just finance. So I find the conversations that I have with people in financial services to be interesting. The subject matter is always changing, and I'm a lifelong learner, an advocate of that. So I like the fact that it's always changing, but really, in order to make change in the world, change goes where money flows. Right? And so if you actually want to make a difference in climate change or anything like that.

     

    Camilla Love

    That'S a great example.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    In financial services, you actually have the ability to make change. And I mean, it's all good, don't get me wrong. Marching and joining in protests and all of that kind of stuff. That's all good stuff. But if you really want to make change, you got to get money to go to the problem.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yes. And divert capital away to actually really make the change that it needs to see. I absolutely agree.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Absolutely.

     

    Camilla Love

    So then talk to me a little bit how you were like, did you love sales? Did you love your roles? What was your favourite asset class that you sold? Can you give me a bit of an insight then?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah, sure. So what I really like to do is start with a problem so I can talk about Gan when I first started at Shed Enterprises. So Gan is a huge global asset manager and we were representing them. They had performance in a fixed income strategy of 10% per annum. They had a tracking record of like ten years. They were coming out to Australia for six years and they just couldn't raise money. So I was like, all right, I need to do a bit of an analysis on what is going on here. So I went out to the market. I spoke to different people. I found that the fee was just too high for the Australian market and they were raising capital all around the world. So they were like, pulling up and negotiate on fees. But that's a mistake, because if you're trying to enter a different market, you need to understand what the constraints and the requirements are of that market to be able to sell the farm. So that was the first thing then. The second thing was you're going to laugh. This is how old I am. But at the time, interest rates were like.

     

    Camilla Love

    More than zero.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah, exactly. They were getting 10%, people go, all right, well, you're getting annualised 10%, so you say. But things can change, right? So that's an okay 10%. Then you're going to charge me 1% fee. So I get to 9%, I can get a guaranteed 7.5%. So I think that I'm going to go with that option.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. Because the risk is a no brainer on the risk decision too.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Absolutely. It was an absolute return bond strategy. Basically. I put that analysis together and I expressed that to the manager and they were like, oh, thank you. No one had ever told us this before. So figuring out what the problem is first and then working out a plan on how to execute and how to sell. So that strategy then. Okay, so then where does it fit? What bucket does it fit into? Is it an alternative because it's a hedge strategy or is it a fixed income strategy? Probably not fixed income because it's too expensive. So then you work out your target market and from the target market, then you go, all right, who are the asset consultants for each of these people? So it's like a puzzle, really. And so it's kind of cool to be able to figure out the bits and pieces and then you just have to go and drink tonnes of coffee.

     

    Camilla Love

    And from a person who doesn't drink coffee at all, me, right. I find that very difficult.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah, it's a lot of coffee. So you have to build relationships, people have to trust you. I always like to think about it. First it's they buy me, then they buy the business and then they buy the product. If they don't want to deal with me, then there's no chance that they're going to buy the product.

     

    Camilla Love

    That's really critical because we talk about a bit in shares, not shoes, that it really is a relationship industry. So talk about how you go about building relationships that are based on trust and authenticity.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I think you just have to go and have coffee with people and just talk about things that aren't related to the product, like don't try and sell all the time. It will come to the end of the conversation. And they'll say, all right, well, show me what you got. I'll see if I'm interested. And I love the institutional space because, look, there's a professional approach to it and I can have a personal relationship with someone and go and try and talk to them about a specific product. But if they're not interested, they can be like, Look, I really like you, Alex, but this is just not going to fly with us.

     

    Camilla Love

    Not for now.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Not for now. Coming soon when you've got something different. So you can have those. It's less opaque, I think, and you can have those open and honest conversations, you can get feedback and you really just have to pound the pavement. Now, it's a little bit different with Zoom, but it's also more efficient. Sometimes you can never forgo or underestimate the impact of being in person. However, having an hour coffee and then tracing to the other end of the city to have an hour coffee takes a long time. Wears out a lot of shoes as we go.

     

    Camilla Love

    The high possibility of breaking a heel. I've done that a few times.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Me too. But on Zoo at the moment now I deal a lot with the US. So I'm based in Singapore, so I deal with the US. The twelve hour time difference. So every day I pretty much only have work from 08:00 P.m. To 10:00 P.m. At night with the US. And I probably have four pitches a night for half an hour.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, right.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Which is a lot of energy, but I can get through a lot. I must have had 220 meetings with global institutions in the last seven months or something. That's a lot of meetings.

     

    Camilla Love

    That is a lot of meetings.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Gosh.

     

    Camilla Love

    The efficiency is definitely there. You can see that already.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah. And so depending on what the product is and how complex it is, I'm selling sponsorships to a nonprofit, which is pretty easy to get your head around. Whereas if you're selling a derivative strategy or a quantitative strategy, it's going to take a lot of meetings. Right. And institutional sales process, I always tell people, is minimum twelve months from the first meeting, two years, and then two years, probably by the time the money comes in, it's probably six months from the time they tell you that you're going to get the money.

     

    Camilla Love

    Actually, by the time you do all the legals definitely in the negotiation part on fees. Oh, my gosh, it can take a while.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    It can take a while. But when you get $150,000,000 mandate or my biggest one ever was $350,000,000, that's pretty exciting.

     

    Camilla Love

    On that day, totally go out and buy a pair of new shoes just on a pattern.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah, absolutely.

     

    Camilla Love

    So you mentioned your quest and your sort of mantra of lifelong learning. And I know you've done extra stuff and your postgrad stuff. Tell me a little bit about that and why you did it.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    So, Kai, I did because most Shared enterprises was it's a third party marketing firm. And what that means is that we represented international fund managers in the Australian market and Shared Enterprises is a specialist in alternative investments. And alternative investments are typically basically they have more bells and whistles and levers and bits and pieces more complex, much more complex. I did that and then I moved on to Tribeca and I was head of investor relations at Tribeca. And again, they had a macro strategy. They had a long short equity strategy and a regular small cap strategy, but they were complex strategies. And I really felt that to have the credibility to go and speak to a CIO about the macro strategy or the long short equity strategy, which was what we call quantum, which is part quantitative. Sorry. And part fundamental. I really needed to have the vocabulary and the skills and the understanding to be credible. And so I did the hire and it was the most useful study immediately, useful study I've ever done to exactly what I was doing. And no study is wasted, don't get me wrong. But for what I was doing, the comprehension rate just increased substantially.

     

    Camilla Love

    And that is a focus on alternatives. Correct?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Correct. So it's like the CFA, but it's for alternatives.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. Okay. Obviously that applied directly to the people you're talking to and the products that you're with. And I bring this up because there are alternatives out there that might not necessarily be apparent when people are just looking for extra learning in this space.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Absolutely. And so the other thing that I'm doing now is I've just signed up to Wharton online. So Wharton is the top finance University in the world. The top finance University in the world. Obviously, I don't have the capacity to go and do a course there in person at the moment, but I've signed up for a certificate in asset allocation and portfolio construction, which I'm continuing to do. So there are lots of different ways that you can upskill yourself. And if you want to transition or you need to move from media communications into finance, lots of different ways you could do it.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Good.

     

    Camilla Love

    So tell me, I always like to have real life stories as part of this and tell me, like, I'm really interesting or highlight of your career so far.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Really interesting highlight of my career. Well, I guess that was the first mandate I won. Right. So I did this analysis and I don't actually think anyone ever thought that I was going to raise money, so that was pretty cool.

     

    Camilla Love

    Why not? Well, I don't know.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Because with the third party marketer, you're kind of a gun for hire, almost. Sure. So it's not the same as what you do being invented organisation and understanding what's happening. You're always one step removed. Right. So you're just the sales and marketing, really. And she's had been successful, definitely. But I think that people were expecting that other people would have to come in at the top level and support the sales process through the end. So I worked out this strategy and I was like, all right, so this is how they outperformed. And so I reached out to one of the CIOs and I said, Will you have a meeting with me? And he said, yes, I have a coffee with you. And so he had like a 30 minutes coffee with me. And he said something about the product why he wasn't interested in looking at it. And I said, well, actually, I have to cheque because I'm only new, but I think that that's wrong. I think that actually these are the returns of the product. And so he was like, all right, well, send me stuff, and I'll have a look at it. And so I sent it to him, and he was like, you're right.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Actually, my understanding of this strategy was not correct, and it has outperformed all of its peers. So then I started building a relationship with this CIO and brought the portfolio manager out a number of times. And then he said to me, okay. So I've decided I want to do this, and I'm going to go and tell Jana that I want to do this. And they have to come back to me with a reason why I can't do what I want to do. And I was like, that is the golden ticket. If you can get an institutional investor to instruct an asset consultant to work on your product, then you basically can open the floodgates. And that's kind of what happened. He had the access consultant work on it. They approved the strategy. And I remember I was walking on George Street when he called me, and he said, I just want to let you know I'm going to give you $150,000,000. And I did a happy dance on the street.

     

    Camilla Love

    And people are like, who's this crazy lady? What is she doing?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Why is she doing? And then literally. So it took 18 months to get that first call to say they were going to give us that money and another 18 months to raise $1.5 billion.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. Wow. And it's funny how it's just the first and then once the first how long it takes to get to the first. And once the first comes in, the flood comes not always.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    But if it's a good product and it really helps. And so one of the key points I would like, I think that's a good story to highlight the need for persistence. And a lot of people won't have that persistence, and that tenacity to keep following up. And they can't be annoying. You really have to try not to be annoying, because that shuts off the basis. The way that I did it with him was he said, okay, this is the next thing I'm going to do. Call me in two months. And so I put it in my diary, and I called him in two months. And I said, hey, you told me to reach out in two months. Is now a good time? And he would say, no, I still haven't got to it. Give me another month. And so I cancel it in my diary. And whatever he told me to do, I really try not to test for him. So having that systematic approach to the follow up is significant in the sales process, for sure.

     

    Camilla Love

    To me, there's two sort of learnings from that story. And I relate to something that I had a conversation ages ago, maybe 15 years ago, I had with my boss, who said, really? There's only 10% of people like you and I, Alex, where we just get stuff done. The rest of the people will go along on the ride or things happen in its luck or whatever. But it's 10% of people who have that persistency. And the second moral of the story never underestimate to me, Alex McGuigan.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    They're underestimate Alex McGuigan. That's exactly right. So I used to be the chair of the emerging leaders and the CEO was leaving. And I remember I had a conversation with them and I said, Please give me some pearls of wisdom before you leave. And this person said to me, Never underestimate the mediocrity of others.

     

    Camilla Love

    And that's true.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I've never ever forgotten it. And you know what? You don't have to be the best. You just have to be a little bit better than everybody else and you will still win.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed, pearls of wisdom, everyone pearls of wisdom. Hey, where are you going to be in five years time?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Where am I going to be? Well, I'm actually working on something pretty exciting. I can't say this yet, but I'm working on a project. What I can say is that female portfolio managers tend to outperform. And there's a lot of empirical evidence that has been done by investment banks and management consulting firms that prove this. And it's for a number of reasons. One is self selection bias. So they are just those type of people, those 10% of people who get it done. They are also comfortable being the only person in the room. So these portfolio managers tend to sit with contrarian positions longer, which is very valuable in a portfolio. So even though we have this information that tells us that women outperform, they still manage less than 1% of the global assets, and that is also for various reasons. One is unconscious bias, but I think that we're coming to a place where they are being actively addressed in organisations. But the second and probably most challenging piece is the structural element. Right? So institutional investors, they have risk management requirements and investment committees who say you can't be more than 10% of a fund, which makes it impossible for them to invest in women.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    So there's this whole group of exceptional investors who get immediately eliminated from the selection process just because of their size. So I'm working on a project with two single preemptive institutions on analysing whether or not this is actually true for the Asia Pacific managers outperform. And if the research proves the case, then I'm going to be working on a solution to get more money to women.

     

    Camilla Love

    What's this thing?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I know it's very exciting.

     

    Camilla Love

    That's so exciting.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    It is.

     

    Camilla Love

    So we're going to come to the end of our podcast soon, but before we do, have you listened to any of my other podcasts? What we do at the end, we do this quick fire round where I ask you like five or six different questions and you got to say the first thing, like the first thing that comes into your line you're up for something like that?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Sure. Okay.

     

    Camilla Love

    Well, who knows what your answer is going to be?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    That's why I say I hope not. Rude.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay. You ready to go? Yep.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Let's go.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay. If you could be any animal, what would it be? And why?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Tiger. Strong and beautiful.

     

    Camilla Love

    Fierce.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Fierce.

     

    Camilla Love

    Endangered.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Endangered. I think strong, powerful. But I don't want to say calculated. Yeah, but planned and considered. I think if they make an attack, they don't just do it. They think about it and they stalk. They stalk.

     

    Camilla Love

    My favourite superhero is Sheira Princess of Power.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    So good.

     

    Camilla Love

    Oh, my God, that reminds me of the 80s. That's so good. I love that. If you could invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Oh, Elizabeth Taylor.

     

    Camilla Love

    So amazing.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Taylor? Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    And just because of the Grace. The diamonds, the dress?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Diamonds, the diamonds, the dress. I just want to know the stories as well.

     

    Camilla Love

    How many husbands?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Nine or something. She married one of them and divorced one of them twice.

     

    Camilla Love

    Twice exactly. A lady who can't make up her mind. Nothing wrong with that. My favourite book is.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    By David Benioff and it's called City of Fees. It's about the siege of Leninbrad and two boys. They get thrown in a prison cell together and they've basically both been accused of doing something wrong. And in order to save their lives, the general or the commander sends them off on this incredibly dangerous adventure to find a dozen eggs in the Siege of Leonograde when there was, like, everyone was starting to death. So it's a fabulous look. You won't be able to put it down.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay, great. I'll have to put that on my reading list.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    It's very good.

     

    Camilla Love

    My first investment was a property.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    An apartment on William Street. Darling house.

     

    Camilla Love

    Do you still have it?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I do.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Someone is living in it right now. Hopefully. Happy.

     

    Camilla Love

    Good.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    My biggest investment mistake was not linking my offset account for my money. For the property.

     

    Camilla Love

    No.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Anyway, I figured it out.

     

    Camilla Love

    Extra interest, paid less and learned.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Lesson learned. That was a Biggie.

     

    Camilla Love

    What weird or unusual thing do you have in your handbag right now that you want to tell us about shoes? I'm thinking of something else, but. Yeah, cool. No, every handbag has a good pair of shoes.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Well, and you know what? I'm just really organised and I constantly change my handbag, so there's nothing weird in there. I usually put it away.

     

    Camilla Love

    Gosh. I don't have enough handbags to do that.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Maybe that's a better question. What do you draw?

     

    Camilla Love

    What is in your drawer? Then tell us.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Yeah, it's not really very exciting either. No, passwords is not very exciting.

     

    Camilla Love

    The efficiency of passwords in your drawings. My hidden talent is.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Oh, reciting poetry.

     

    Camilla Love

    What?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Reciting poetry.

     

    Camilla Love

    Can you tell some now? Come on, you can do it. Come on.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I used to have this one poem that I used to win all of the estate around Sydney. And for anyone who's not into acting or whatever, it's very lucrative business. So when you get to the open stage when you're 16 years old, there's like, $100 cheque, which was a lot of money back in the 90s. So I used to make my mom drive me around all around Sydney, and I used to recite the same poem and just, like, clean up.

     

    Camilla Love

    Do you remember it?

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I can tell you the night. Yes, of course I remember it. My family still walks around the house going, Knight herons. Judith. Right. They mock me to know it.

     

    Camilla Love

    And you're like, But I still got cash for that.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    I got cash for that and I got an apartment. So who had the last laugh?

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. Indeed. And the final question is a career in finance is freedom.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    That's it.

     

    Camilla Love

    I think that's fabulous way to end. So, Alex, fabulous. So good to hear from you. I really miss you for being in Singapore. Come home and visit us soon. Thanks for being so wonderful and such a great, organic conversation. And thanks for sharing your ups and downs and your Nuggets of information. And if anyone wants to take anything away, never underestimate Alex Miguel.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Never underestimate the mediocrity of others. That's the best one. But if anyone wants to contact me, any students want to know anything, contact me through LinkedIn. I'm happy to help in any way I can. Hunter Women in Finance has free memberships for students. So if you want to get involved and learn more about just start to learn the dialogue and the language, the different events they're on, all that kind of stuff. Just let me know and I'm very happy to help.

     

    Camilla Love

    Thanks, Alex. Okay, hopefully see you soon.

     

    Alex McGuigan

    Thanks, Kim.

     

    Camilla Love

    Bye. For more information on what we do at F Three, Head to F Three.com Au. I look forward to you joining us next episode Where we continue to interview some fabulous people. Thank you. The Inside Scoop On Careers in Finance. Bye. For now, you know the information that is in this podcast.

     

    Camilla Love

    We always talk about finance in this podcast.

     

    Camilla Love

    But it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how I'm Finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S2.Ep4: Don't be Afraid to ask the Next Question with Annabelle Gillings

Introducing Annabelle. Annabelle shares about her time at University, her work experience and taking the plunge for her first official role in the finance industry at eInvest.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome everyone, back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes, an Insider's guide to careers in finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of Future Females in Finance. Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview someone of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go. This week's episode, we are joined by someone who really and truly impresses me every day, Annabelle Gillings. She works with me as an associate investment specialist at Einvest. I've chosen Anna to share with us her journey into finance. She is a really recent graduate, even showing me her graduate certificates this morning that she printed out specially on the printer. She hasn't even got the hard copy yet. I'm keen to find out why she was interested in finance, what she did at University and school, some of her work experiences before taking her first big career step, coming to join us at Einvest. So thanks for joining us today, Anna. Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing your story.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Thank you so much for having me. It's my first ever podcast, which I think is a bit scary, but exciting, and I'm happy to be here. Hopefully have a bit of a unique perspective to some of the other great guests you've had on so far.

     

    Camilla Love

    Absolutely. And I don't bite, as you well know, so this will be a pretty easy experience to go through. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Start from the beginning. What did you do at school? What subjects did you do in your final year and why did you choose those subjects? What was so interesting about them?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, so I grew up in Sydney, went to Plc, and I kind of grew up always keeping busy with sport, dance, music. I was athletics captain at school as well, and I just had always loved maths and business from the very beginning. So funny story. I grew up really obsessed with those Excel books that you buy from the news agent. And I would make my parents buy them for me to do math questions on the couch over the weekend in all my spare time. Really quite odd of me, but I think I just always love problem solving in maths and formulas and all that kind of stuff. And it was just every time I tell anyone that they think, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.

     

    Camilla Love

    You should tell my son Henry, who is in year three, we have this conversation all the time.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I just used to love them because it's just when you have a problem and then you can answer it and it's right and you're right or wrong, it's like very logical. And that's just my approach, I think, to a lot of things. So I guess when I was in my final year, I did the usual extended advanced English, I did extension maths, I did bio, I did business, economics and religion. So I had quite a full schedule and I was definitely always interested in those business subjects. We got lucky to have financial literacy in year seven and we did some business commerce subjects all throughout and I always picked them. I think it's because I always knew I wanted to go into that kind of field after school, so I knew it would come in handy at some point. And I was pretty terrible at the art and creative subjects compared to some of my peers. So, yeah, that's definitely why I went in that direction.

     

    Camilla Love

    So tell me about why choosing business and economics as two separate subjects, because I love them separately, but it's quite challenging to do economics and business together.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah. So I think I liked business because I think it's more of what I do now is like the front side, the front facing clients, how you work with people, how you work with operations. And that was quite unique, especially in school. Economics was so different to business or business. We did the typical finance, marketing, operations, HR, and then economics. It was monetary, fiscal policy and it was actually quite challenging and not many people did it. And also I think my parents were encouraging me because they both did economics and they knew I'd probably end up being quite good at it and they worked well together and then they worked well when I did go into uni and I started off in my economics degree and it was just, oh, I did this in year twelve.

     

    Camilla Love

    Like it was a very good transition and it makes sense economics and business together because you talk about supply and demand in economics and you see that come out in business all the time.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, they did work together and I think I don't even know how well I did in economics because it was really hard for the level that we were at only in year twelve. But yeah, they definitely work together nicely. And then even with the maths, I did three unit maths as well, so they kind of all paced together a bit better. So that was nice.

     

    Camilla Love

    How did you juggle your extracurricular stuff at school, being the captain of athletics and the captain of netball? How did you juggle that with your studies? Because they're pretty big roles to have.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, for sure. So I think since I was in primary school, I had a dance class every day. I had netball training three times a week and I had music and Mum had the piano lady come over and I was just so busy that I think I was forced to get stuff done when I have the capacity to do it, even, like when I was so young. It's just you have to be so efficient with your time. And it kind of just taught me the concept of time and that you can still do the things that you love without sacrificing your schoolwork and other, like, job opportunities, whether it's just activities that you like to do. And mom would always be like, okay, you have to pick one thing to do, and I just know I want to do them all. So it's just I kind of put myself in the position where I had to. If I didn't do the good work and I didn't get my work done, I didn't get the good marks, then I wouldn't have been able to do it. So I think I just didn't want to give up anything.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    So I just forced myself to be efficient, which has been good now, because I'm pretty good at managing my time and doing everything that I want to do as much as I can.

     

    Camilla Love

    And it's a really critical skill to have when you are at work and you have a lot of other things to do, and you've got maybe extra study, doing a post grad or you got your juggling, your friends and all that sort of stuff. It's definitely a skill to have.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah. I think you should start with all your studying that you're doing now, taking on everything. So it would be inspiring to me. As soon as I finish my degree, Camilla's going, okay, so what's next? What are you going to sign up for to do next in your learning? So that's always good to have people around you that do the same thing.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And I have a philosophy of lifelong learning, so I'm always seeking information out, whether that be informal study or even informal study through other people, listening to them talk, understanding what their backgrounds are, different cultures, travel, I think, is a great learning experience as well.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, you can definitely learn from literally anyone if you just ask the right questions and be curious. Really cool. Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    Curiosity is really interesting, and it's a skill I think that we all have to bring into our working lives these days.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, for sure.

     

    Camilla Love

    So tell me, did you get the Mark that you wanted to for your end of leaving school, and how did you transition into uni?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    So when I finished school, I got a good Mark for what I had done. And yes, I worked really hard, but I was so busy and I just knuckled down and got the marks that I wanted. I didn't get a Mark for commerce, but at the time, I was pretty set on economics, because I'd always heard of commerce. Yes. The finance side had always had that, like, stigma behind being really, really hard. And perhaps at the time, I didn't know any girls from my kind of age, like, year above me going into finance. It was always the marketing side. And I think Jody actually touched on that in her podcast that all the girls went into marketing and all the boys went into finance. And I think that steered me away a bit from commerce. And because I did like the math side, I started off doing an economics degree, majoring in econometrics, so statistics, numbers. Yeah, it was pretty full on. So I did that for two years. And then I think I really wanted to move. I was doing a finance major in my economics degree, but then I got to the point where I thought, I don't think I'm set out to be in a statistician.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I just didn't think that was going to be my end game. So I was like, I may as well pick up another major that I would enjoy, and that was banking, which I love doing at Uni. But I could only do it if I moved to Commerce. I didn't get in first try to commerce, but it's so great that if you start off and get some good marks, you can just transfer into something that you do want. If you figure out that it's not quite right for you because it's so hard to know when you finish school what is right, but at least you can have the opportunity to change if you need to.

     

    Camilla Love

    And I think that's a really good point because a lot of the students I talk to, they're like, I don't know what I want to do. And commerce is a really sort of broad degree that can apply to a lot of different things. So that's why I was interested in commerce, because, like you, I was interested in business and running a business and all the marketing and sales side of it, but also supply chains and logistics and all that sort of stuff. I really enjoyed that. But were you disappointed? I've got a great story about my University entrance Mark, but were you disappointed that you didn't get into Commerce straight away from your Mark?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    When I was doing subjects, I didn't even have commerce down as one of my subjects. I think I just have economics because I was quite happy to do that at the time. But who knows if that's me subconsciously kind of knowing that at the time I probably wasn't going to get 97 and just going, well, I'm happy to do economics, and I'm interested in it. So I think I know that if I put in a lot more hours, I could have perhaps gotten there, but it seemed such a big thing at the time. But you can really do anything if you're smart enough or if you understand what you're learning, you can get in anywhere. Like, you can end up doing what you really love if you have the capacity. And it's definitely a big deal when you're first year out, but no one asks you when you're going for a job, no one says what did you get at school? Because you can get 99 and not be the best doctor in the world just because of getting a good Mark in school. So I think that made me less disappointed, I think, because I knew there were still so many opportunities regardless of my marks.

     

    Camilla Love

    And that's a great message to tell those students out there listening today about sure, there is a lot of impetus put on to doing the best you can in your final year exams, but really when you hit your career and hit the workforce, do they matter?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, I think that it's so important to be able to talk to people. And I think that I do have so many skills because growing up and in high school I balanced my time, like doing athletics, doing sport, always, just keeping busy. It helped me grow so many more skills that I wouldn't have if I just sat inside all day, every day and quit my sports. And I lost that leadership component of doing sport, doing other activities. And I think I wouldn't get where I am or go anywhere much further in what I want to do if I didn't have those basic skills that you just learned by being around people. But yeah, definitely it is a great opportunity to try your hardest and get into what you want to do if that's what you want to do. But it's not the be all and end all if you can't or if you have other things to manage, like you never know what's going to happen, particularly with Cove. But I'm sure everyone is not going to be as happy with their marks this year or last year than if it wasn't if we weren't locked down.

     

    Camilla Love

    But yeah, it is definitely challenging for those students who are doing at University and at school doing their exam in this lockdown period. It's not good. And on the flip side, as a person who interviews a lot of people, I am always looking for that good mix of street smarts and book smarts, because I think it's that person who has a well rounded life, someone who volunteers and someone who plays an instrument and someone who is in the local netball team or plays tennis regularly. I'm looking for that in people who I like to be around and be with and work with, because it just shows the type of personality you are that you have the ability to work with others in a team. You have, as you said, leadership skills. You have the ability to learn, because all that training and practise, the ability to take direction, take direction.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Exactly like good criticism, like not being offended because especially when you do any area creative, that's creative, whether it's sport, whether it's music, you have to let someone tell you that you're doing something wrong or not very good at something without going off in a Huff and getting offended because you just have to keep going, which I think is very useful because a lot of people aren't super resilient and as soon as someone tells them off, they go into their shell. But it's so important to just be able to be careful. Okay. Thank you for pointing that out. Or thanks for letting me know. I missed that.

     

    Camilla Love

    Absolutely. So then when did you know you wanted to have a career in finance? Like I said before.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think I've got like a logical brain, not too heavy on the creative side, but I like just things that you can work out, use a strategy or a formula and just get the result. And I think finance just allows for that. I see it as the foundation to everything in life, whether it's your business, whether you're starting a business yourself, whether it's the markets and the economy, everything just goes together and makes so much sense. And I think it just uses your brain in a really unique way because it can just help you in your whole life, like being financially stable and understanding how to make money, how the world works. I think it's just so cool.

     

    Camilla Love

    Did you try other things? Like did you try looking at FMCG or did you try looking at doing work experience in the fintech space or even the technology space, or did you look at property or anything else before landing on finance?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Well, I think I because I started working in finance by random, like, random job opportunity. I was working at a pub, I had some really good chats with a bunch of people that came in and I was offered a job basically by this great person that was in financial planning and offered me a job and said, you're doing commerce, that's great. And so I think by getting this job just randomly out of the blue, it taught me so much. And I was kind of like, this is really interesting, and this is why I guess that kind of led me to where I am now. But I did look at doing I know there's a few programmes that are in the fintech space and I do love that area of work. Like, I think it's so interesting and it's evolving so quickly and so many opportunities in there. But I think I just obviously did the typical intern grab applications, that's all the big places, but I mean, that didn't really go anywhere.

     

    Camilla Love

    And I think how was that?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Well, I think it was tough because especially during the current climate, in the last two years, we haven't really had many opportunities to get those roles. And I think it came down to.

     

    Camilla Love

    The typical people.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    It's always about that, but it always came down to all the big places, usually take ten people. When I was applying, I only took four because of coverage constraints, and then it was always, oh, you actually number five out of four. We really liked you, but this person knew the numbers better or something like that. And I think that's what I love about working at Einvest is like you don't need to be the smartest, the best at maths, the best at anything to still do your job well and make an impact. And I think that's really important. Like we're saying before, you want the whole person and them and their skills to complement each other. But yeah, they were definitely hard and it's definitely a bit demoralising, demoralising, perhaps getting so many turn downs. But I don't think about now. I think it's more good to have those experiences and try again as many times as you want.

     

    Camilla Love

    So then what would you recommend if you're standing in your shoes or providing advice to someone who's standing in your shoes a year ago or two years ago, what would you tell them about that internship process or otherwise?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think particularly with those internship and grad role processes is obviously more structured with the big four banks, the big four accounting firms, all that. And I would just say just give it a go because I think I learned so many skills because now it's all online. I did so many video interviews responding to questions on the spot. I did so many online questions, online puzzles, whether you get the job or not, it's just great experience. Writing cover letters, learning about a company quickly and explaining how your skills match is such a good way to learn about yourself. It's essentially just interview questions like we're doing now. Just what makes you want to work in this industry? Why would you fit in with this company? What's the biggest challenge you've had in your life so far or whatever it is. It's such a good way to learn about just talking and responding and whether you get the job or not. It doesn't matter because you'll just be better the next time you apply.

     

    Camilla Love

    But there's so much pressure on people getting these one of six spots or whatever.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, it is hard. And I think obviously with S Three, that was definitely a work internship programme that I don't see any other companies really doing. And when I did the F Three programme, we were with a big company. It wasn't just a random little place, it was still one of those really well known, amazing companies and it was just such a good experience. And I think it was a lot more rewarding than a lot of those programmes can be because you get seen a lot more. But it is a lot of pressure to get those jobs. But there's always something else out there and you just need to.

     

    Camilla Love

    You just need to be patient.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, no rush.

     

    Camilla Love

    So you touched on it before. You and I met nearly a year ago when you were put in one of my F three work experience programmes. And for those of you out there who don't know. F Three does a six week online remote work experience programme where five girls worked together to research, analyse and solve a business problem with a corporate partner. And so Anna was one of these five girls put into an organisation with a business project and they had to research, analyse and solve and present to pretty much the whole of the Sydney and Melbourne offices, correct?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    On their recommendations and the outcomes and the solution to their project. So tell me a little bit about what you did, how you found it, because the whole goal of what we do here at Shares, Not Shoes. And what I do at F Three is to nudge as many girls into finance as possible by showcasing really great role models and showing them the knowledge that finance isn't the scary industry that it's made out to be. But that F Three, the work experience programme, is a really supportive framework to do that in. So can you explain your experience?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, of course. So we met, obviously, all on Zoom and we're working in groups and we got given a big problem, a topic. And so coincidentally, ours was on ETS and we got to do this big project that was so just felt like real world experience. It wasn't just a Uni project, it was like, okay, we're actually presenting to the board and the whole company. It's like, we need to know what we're talking about. And I think it was so unique because obviously, being a girl, a woman doing finance at Uni, I did maybe seven or eight group assignments in the last year. I was the only girl of five in every group that I was in. And I think when you get put up against just boys, they sometimes probably don't think, you know as much as you probably do know. And I think the good thing about F Three was that you really just learned so much and just grew so much more confidence. Like, we'd have these group discussions and instead of being a bit tentative or not knowing if your idea was good or if it was relevant, we just got so comfortable with throwing out our ideas.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    And then if someone's idea was bad, we'd be able to say it and then we talk about how it was bad or how it was good. And I think it's just like a really supportive experience. We got to meet each week with someone different of a different Department in the business. And obviously they all link to finance in some way. It's a financial services company. And I think that was one of the key things that I got out of it was that I was like, wow, you can literally be in any Department and still work in finance if you like it. You don't have to be the analyst, you don't have to be at the back end of everything. And that's what I think in Uni, sometimes you can be scared about financing. If you do finance, you have to be an analyst and not everyone wants to do that. And so I think it was a really great opportunity for me to see the cool sides of stuff. Like, we did a whole piece on the marketing side of this product and it's kind of what we do now at Einvest, which is awesome.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    And you can still be creative. And I think in some ways it can be even more challenging, especially in finance and marketing. It's like there's so many regulations, there's so many things you can say, there's so many things you can't say. And it's interesting. Like invest. Now, we're one of the only fundies on social media, which is so unique, but it's so necessary with today and the world that's changing so quickly. Everyone invests on their phone, everyone is on their phone all the time. They want to learn. So I think that was what was so good about Fbri is I met all these cool people that did things that I was like, I would be good at that, rather than just thinking, what if someone's a bit better at stock picking than I am? It just broadened my interest and my horizon, I guess, of jobs that are out there for finance.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And that's essentially what the work experience placement does aim to do. It shows not only does it give you the experience and skills you need, but it gives you the network that you need into financial services, which a lot of people say I can't get into finance because I don't know anyone who works in there. This programme not only shows you, gives you an introduction to these people, but gives you an understanding about what their background was, what they do for the business, how the business sits within the value chain of financial services, and how their suppliers or their customers support the ultimate end game of the business itself. So you had a pretty cool team, I would say. You guys were obviously very smart people and you had a team that got along really well. And I could definitely tell that we were quite lucky.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think it was hard, not obviously meeting in person, but great Practise for uni subjects, uni courses. And now we work from home every day for the past few months, so it's been good Practise to learn to make connections with people, even if it's not in person. And I think we had a fifth member, but she wasn't quite enjoying it or following along and she ended up leaving our group and we kind of all had to pick up the extra work, but it ended up working out well because we got to just work together even more and kind of build a really good connection. So, yeah, it was actually a lot of fun as well, which is always nice to have a fun group because then we actually enjoyed having our 09:00 P.m. Meetings on a Tuesday night because everyone had a different work schedule. Everyone had uni. Some people worked at night. It was just all over the place. So you kind of have to get along if you were going to be talking that much for six weeks.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. Now would you recommend it to people out there to get involved?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Sure, yeah. I think being a woman in finance is a bit scary. In Uni, it is majority boys. Well, at least that was my experience and not because they can't do it, just because I think people probably get scared and it just gave me so much confidence. I think I came back to Uni last semester and I was giving all the ideas and then I think I was giving a bunch of ideas that I maybe wouldn't have been as happy to say before, but I was kind of just like, well, I've learned I've had experience. I kind of know a bit more now and I think that's the best way to learn is definitely through experience and it was so supportive and really fosters the growth of women in finance, which can't get much better than that.

     

    Camilla Love

    During that work experience programme that we did, you and I met and I asked you to start an invest, which thankfully you accepted, which I'm still very excited about.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yes, me too.

     

    Camilla Love

    Tell me about what your role is. Is there a typical day in your role? What challenges does your role bring? Stuff from the top so everyone can understand what you do?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah. So obviously I work with a great team. There's only five of us at the moment who all have a different role and different parts of play. And I guess my role kind of is just a bit of a support in each kind of area, whether it's helping content create with Jodi or now talking to clients and kind of educating investors in that way. But it's also the daily reporting on performance and making sure all of our ETFs are complying with the ASX and on Chi X on our trading platforms and making sure all of our monthly requirements are met. And there are a lot in the financial services industry which everyone will come to realise. But it is fun because I get to work on the website, work on sending out the commentaries and just help. I guess my job is to pretty much learn about the funds in the markets and just try and be up to date with everything. And yeah, I think it's cool because it's really important to always be up to date with news and we're constantly sharing news articles to read and just see what's going on at the moment because it is so important in our industry, which I've loved doing.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    So I think that's the daily activities is just checking. We've got all of our announcements sent out for all of our funds, and then it's just a bit of a mixed bunch. It's a lot of fun, though, because you do get to see all the different sides. I do work with the operations quite a bit, work with the sales team. Then I'm emailing the portfolio managers and learning from them, as well as looking at the marketing and how we can kind of get our products out there and get more traction and get people to invest because it's such we've got the best fun. So why not?

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. Yes, it's great. Thanks for the little Einvest plan.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    You just started in the industry. It must be a really big learning curve for you right now. What's it like in that learning curve? Is it as daunting as you expect? And did you have any sort of false starts along the way? What are your major learnings?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, I think when you definitely start out, the biggest thing is just I've said this to Camille a bunch of times. I don't know if I can ask the question or whether I should know it or not already, but I think definitely now, being here for a few months and working in financial services previously, it's just like you need to just ask questions, and that's what is scary. And it's a bit scary. Now emailing portfolio managers just asking them random questions, but that's what they're there for. They love to talk to you and they love to give you some insight and help you in your role, which has definitely been daunting in the beginning and just knowing that a lot of people around you could know more than you. But that's the beauty of working in finance is that everyone around you probably does know something that you don't know. And that's why it's such a good place to learn, particularly now in our business, because we are so client facing and we do work with our investors so closely is that we get to work with investors, but then we also get to work with portfolio managers and we get to work with financial planners from across the country.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    And that's just really cool, I think. And it's not as scary as it's made out to be. I think as long as you just ask the questions and you don't try and do things that you can't do, because if you do make a mistake, it can cause issues. So it's like you just need to ask. And I think that's something I learned a while ago. I was talking to someone and they're saying if you make a mistake, you need to tell someone and they'll help you. But if you try and hide it or do something that you don't know how to do it, it's not your fault. It's not your fault if you don't know how to do it, you just need to ask.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. And it's better up. It's better to be open. And even now, 20 years on for me, I'm forced to say I don't know anything and would really love to be taught by others, particularly if it's their deep expertise.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah. I think it's a hard thing to obviously lots of people don't like asking for help just by nature or whatever. But if you don't ask for help or you just don't say no, I don't know that it's quite. What's the word? It's quite confident of you to just say, I don't know, I don't know the answer. And that's something that I've learned very quickly, which I probably wouldn't have known before this, because you always want people to think you do know everything, but reality is that you really don't. So it's just great to learn from people with those expertise.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. Now, I always ask this question of all my guests and obviously you're no different, even though you're only at the beginning of your career. But what is the best career advice you've ever been given and why did it resonate with you?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think the best advice I've ever been given and I couldn't even tell you where it's from. Probably my dad at some point or my mum and dad. I know they all have great insight, but I think it was just always say yes. Just always say yes. Whether it's for a coffee, whether it's for like a job or whether it's to learn about someone, just always say yes. I think so far it's given me so many opportunities just to meet people and connect and have opportunities. Just hearing someone else's side and seeing what they do for their work is so cool and such a good way to learn. Like we said, it's just so good to learn through other people. And I think people love. I know it's happened quite a lot recently, me organising to meet up with just people that I know, like, my God, parents just talking to my family about their jobs. People love being asked about what they do because they want you to know. I think that's what it obviously say yes until you have no capacity left. But I think it's given me a lot of good opportunities to meet people and make connections, which is always important.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Just say yes to opportunities because it's so important. I think.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great. I think that's fabulous.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Nice.

     

    Camilla Love

    So we're coming to the end of the episode because you've listened to some of my previous episodes. We do this quick fire round. Right. And so you got to say the first thing that comes into your head about the questions that I'm going to ask you. Right. So you're up for this?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah, got it.

     

    Camilla Love

    So let's start. If you could live in any country in the world, what would it be and why?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think if I didn't have to work, it'd probably be Croatia, because I love the food, the beach, the water, the partying. It was like my favourite place when I went travelling to Europe with my friends, I think Croatia would be.

     

    Camilla Love

    I've never been so it's amazing. I wish typically we were just coming out of lockdown.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I know.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Your favourite superhero is probably Batman and that's because I don't really know any superheroes. But I did watch Gotham, which was that TV show about the backstory of him and I loved that. So that's the only one I know well enough to have an opinion.

     

    Camilla Love

    I think that man is a good choice.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    My first investment was the ASX 200. Just plain and simple basket. You can never get it wrong.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great place to start. Was it an ETF too?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yes.

     

    Camilla Love

    At the moment I have FOMO for overseas trouble, obviously. Me too. So many people.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    My brothers live overseas. They've gone across Europe, across America, and we're all sitting here. But it'll be soon enough.

     

    Camilla Love

    I'm sure it will be soon enough. Don't you worry. If you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think this will be a bit of a maybe a shock, but I think not because of my personal beliefs, but I would love to sit down with Trump and just understand him. Just because I think he's such an interesting person and just like businessman, politician, and just like pick apart his brain. I think he just would be a very unique perspective on life or Alternatively, Obama, because I think he's awesome and inspirational and I think I've just always had a little love for American politics. So I just love to see how it works.

     

    Camilla Love

    I think that's a great no, I think it's great. And learning from other people, even if they're different from you, really is really important. So critical. Okay, next one. My favourite book is.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think my favourite book at the moment would be The Husband Secret, which is Leanne Moriarty. And I only got into reading this lockdown and they're just pretty much all Romcoms kind of romantic novels, just the typical boy meets girl. But The Husband's Secret is awesome and I would recommend it to anyone. It's one of her best books.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great. How would your friends describe you?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    I think my friends would describe me as very driven and motivated, loyal and probably reliable. Yeah, I think those kind of vibes is usually how they describe me. Sometimes a bit too motivated or too busy, but I'm always there for my friends.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, I think that's important. So if you're stranded on a desert island, what two things would you take with you?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    That's a hard one. Logically. I'd probably just take a lot of water Philtre and something that would help me start a fire. Logically. Otherwise it would be like my phone and swimmers.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. Well, if you're on a desert island and no one else is there.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    You might not need them.

     

    Camilla Love

    You don't even need them. True. But then if you found you want to have something, don't you?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Exactly. That could be embarrassed.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay. Yeah, indeed. Describe in three words why a career in finance is awesome opportunities.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Just learning and just being around also like minded people. Because I think when you're in finance, more than three words, I'm sorry, but I think when you're in finance, your brains just work similarly and that just helps you make great connections. And I think that's what I've found so far is everyone in our team just gets along so well and it's just the same. You love the same stuff. Yeah, it's awesome.

     

    Camilla Love

    And I will say that I've specifically built the invest team to be reasonably diverse. So that's why I think the team actually gets along really well is because we all come from different backgrounds and thought processes.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    And that's the thing. There's definitely something to be learnt from everyone, as well as agreeing on a lot of things too, and having a lot of similar ideas. But you can always learn and someone will always have a different perspective. There's always someone who's on a different page. But it's good because it's great for conversation and great for learning about learning.

     

    Camilla Love

    That comes to the end of our podcast. And it was so wonderful to chat with you today because just seeing the industry in the next generation's eyes, seeing how and hearing your story about how you've travelled through school and University and taking your first job in finance can really anchor, particularly the people who are in finance already, what that next generation is looking for and where they've come from. But also your great insight for those people who are standing in years 1011 and twelve are at University today to explain to them about your journey, what subjects you chose, what you did at University, why finance is interesting to you. I think that's really fulfilling and give people a really good insight from your perspective. And I really thank you for sharing a journey with us at Cher's Not Shoes.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Well, thank you so much. It kind of flew by. It was a lot easier than I thought.

     

    Camilla Love

    I didn't buy, did I?

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    No way.

     

    Camilla Love

    No.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Yeah. It's really important. And I think it's cool to have a good platform to share a bunch of different stories because you never know who it can help. And yes, it's been fun indeed.

     

    Camilla Love

    So thank you for being open and honest with your journey. It really means a lot to me and it means a lot to our listeners and we really appreciate it.

     

    Annabelle Gillings

    Of course. Thank you so much.

     

    Camilla Love

    For more information about our guests on Shares Not Shoes and further episodes, head to Shares Not Shoes.com. Or for more information on F Three, head to F Three.com au you can obviously find us at your favourite podcast spot. I look forward to having you join us for our next episode where we continue to interview some really fabulous, wonderful, inspiring people and showcase you some great careers in finance and give you the inside scoop into how to get into the industry. So bye for now, everybody the information that is in this podcast we always talk about finance in this podcast. But it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about career's advice and how finance would be a fabulous career for you.

S2.Ep3: The Value in Multiple Perspectives with Sandi Orleow

Welcome Sandi Orleow. Sandi is an incredibly experienced professional with a portfolio career as a non executive director. Sandi shares how her career in finance started in South Africa and led her to Australia.

  • The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology so please forgive any grammatical imperfections.


    Camilla Love

    Welcome everyone, back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes, an Insider's guide to careers in finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of Future Females in Finance. Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview someone of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you.

     

    Camilla Love

    I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest, and will inspire you. So let's go. Today's episode, I am super excited to introduce you to one of my favourite people in the superannuation and investment industry in Australia. She is a person who questions me, pushes me to think differently and gives me the support to challenge the status quo. She's energetic, passionate and with such a warm heart. It is Sandi Orleow. Thanks, Sandi, for joining me today on Shares Not Shoes.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Hi, Camilla, so nice to be here with you.

     

    Camilla Love

    Sandi has a portfolio career now as a non executive director, but she started her career in South Africa prior to moving to Australia. And I look forward to hearing her journey today. So, Sandi, tell me a little bit about what you do, why you do it and what is the purpose and meaning for you, why you do what you do.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Well, there's a lot of questions, Cam.

     

    Camilla Love

    It's a bit deep, isn't it? First question.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So I have a portfolio career now, which means that I sit across a whole lot of different businesses and don't work with a single entity. So I have a board role on a superannuation fund. I have a government board role. I have a listed investment company board role. I sit down some association boards. And I love what I do. I love the fact that I have the opportunity to work with a number of organisations and I love the fact that I can work with them strategically in terms of sitting around the table and trying to contemplate what the future holds and how things should be supported going forward. That's where I am at the moment. My Genesis into a portfolio career started about seven years ago. I was working within a funds management business. I'd been working within investment consulting, funds management, and I saw sometimes great people and organisations weren't really given the opportunity to be great. So it was okay. How do I try and influence the environment and the culture to try and support environments for people to be great and to come to work and put the best self forward? And I thought that would be sitting on boards and committees and that was my Genesis to start to move from executive work into non-executive work where I am today.

     

    Camilla Love

    So you talk about culture and that's a really big word with lots of different concepts and I always describe it as the iceberg, right? So you only see a little bit at the top. But actually the culture is everything underneath the water and it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and it's a sort of organic organism. So what do you look for when you're in the cultures of the organisations that you're working with to highlight whether they're a great organisation to work with or not.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So in my executive work, I was involved a lot in manager research and product research, and part of that was actually researching the components that went into making an organisation great or being a good investor or partner for us going forward. And one of those things, we're trying to get your finger on what that environment is, what the secret source or the environment is, because at the end of the day, a lot of things are commoditized. We work in a great industry with lots of highly intelligent, competent people. Everyone, theoretically on paper, can do the job, but you almost need it to almost synthesise and come together so that you can be great in terms of what it's about. So even when I work with organisations and you look at culture, culture is not second, forget, it's kind of always needs to be looked after and monitored. I look at it in terms of speaking to the people, finding out their comfort of talking what the appetite is for growth and doing things exciting. I read a lot on social media, I read mainstream media. I use a lot of almost that mosaic theory of speaking to people that work with those organisations, in those organisations, for those organisations and kind of hear about what's the experience of dealing with someone, what's the issue, what should you be aware about?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    And I think when you're looking at culture, culture can exist differently at different parts of an organisation, but in essence you want to know what is the business or the organisation seeking to do and does the culture support it? And look, I'm a big believer. You can call the word culture. Culture feels like it's becoming a bit of a cliche word at the moment. It's almost like agile culture. What does it actually mean? Same thing I think it's got to do with the kind of place that you want to be involved in or something that supports it. And it doesn't always have to be good and happy and everyone kind of being nice to each other because you could choose to work in a culture that's highly aggressive and supportive of an aggressive growth agenda and everyone goes in and it's kind of made the best man succeed. And it's kind of a little bit of less supportive but more aggressive. And at a certain stage of a business that may be wrapped, but it's almost understanding what you're looking for, what's important to you, and then kind of factoring does that organisation have it, and am I seeing attributes of it or signs of it and anecdotal things that are happening?

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, that's right. And we talk a lot to University students and school students on this podcast and we talk about culture is something that is really led from the top. How do people actually analyse or size up leadership at the moment? Because there's a lot of change that's going in on the leadership mindset particularly. And it's all about authentic leadership and allowing you to bring your whole self to work. And it's really interesting over this cover period how we've been able to sort of move or shift the culture a little bit, to be a little bit more flexible and be a bit more meaningful to people in their everyday lives. So what sort of tips would you give for people to size up, particularly the leadership in reflection of culture? And what signals can leadership give to sizing that up?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Again, as I said, I come with my own personal biases. Everyone has their own biases and styles of engagement that they have a preference to. And I think it's with an acknowledgment of understanding what your biases are and what things resonate with you versus others. And it might be different, but I think it still goes back to the same point that I said. It depends where the organisation is in its life cycle and what its agenda is in terms of what it's seeking to do. I could tell you on paper that I think the leadership of the future is one that is collaborative, that doesn't claim to have the answers, that kind of has a way to pull in the best of everyone and synthesise it. But in reality there will be companies at a certain stage that need leadership to kind of make the hard decisions to get going are less perceived to be collaborative. So I think it depends on life cycle, where business is and what they seeking to do, and what's fortunate is we're all different, and certain things work better with certain types of working styles than others. And I think as everyone contemplates where they want to go with their career, life, place of work, partner, things will be different for different people.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    And it's probably knowing almost what your values are and your priorities are and then recognising where you think things are going and what you want to be part of. And it's factoring that in. And then in terms of the actual leadership, you want people to kind of be living the values that they kind of ascribe to. And I think it's interesting you see a lot of people talking about now the priority of the great is it the great resignation or is it the great balance? Indeed, I think it goes on the notion of it's the whole of person. And definitely we're moving into a time where the whole of person is expected. And as the uni students come in. And as we have the new workforce coming to the fore, the whole priority of your workforce and life not being two separate things being there, you want the purpose to be evident, you want the organisations to share and respect the purpose that you subscribed to and it may be a drive for you actually joining the organisation because you value what they support. And if they don't have necessarily a project that they're supporting, do they expect and accept that their staff do recognise that they want to do volunteering and is the flexibility allowed in the structure?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So I think that's the whole notion of, if you believe it's important that family comes first, you expect someone, your leader, to be taking off a bit of work and going to see their kids play sport or doing gym in the morning and walking in at nine or taking a gym class at one. I mean, when I got into the workforce, that wasn't done indeed. And now it's almost you're finding these Gen X's and these older leaders kind of saying you can't have one standard for yourself and another standard for someone else. You've got to almost kind of live the ethics and the ideals of the organisation and role model indeed.

     

    Camilla Love

    And it's funny because as I lead my team at Einvest, I am very cognizant of how I role model what I expect in the team. So I think it's true. You have your whole of self at work. I think your mind and body needs to be fit and healthy to be able to do that. We do believe that family does come first and I encourage everybody in my team to be at those important events with their kids and be able to pick them up from school and things like that. But you're right in that different cultures and different businesses fit different people. And I always talk about it, particularly when I'm doing panels at schools and on the podcast. You really need to go and try all these different cultures and organisations out to find what's right for you, because you're absolutely right that the individual needs to sit down and work out what's important to them before they get into the workforce or before they change companies, because if they don't know what's right for them and they go into an organisation and go, oh, this is not right for me, then that's sort of like lost time.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    And I think that it's super important just on that camp in terms of knowing what you want, sometimes it's hard to know exactly what you want. It's almost easier to know what you don't want. So I never look at things as actually a waste of time, to be quite honest, because I believe you learn from everything. So I think that mentality of kind of learning from failure, learning from trying, I cannot underestimate or underplay the importance of recognising that if mistakes are made or things aren't perfect. There's a lesson in that and it will play out and it will come to the fall.

     

    Camilla Love

    Absolutely. And you well know that I'm a testament to learning by doing and the ability to, if it's not working, stop. And here I'm going to put the word in pivot to something that may work differently. And so I'm very open to experimenting different things, and I think it's important for everybody else to take on that mindset.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Absolutely.

     

    Camilla Love

    In your answer, you also talked about purpose. And we talk a lot about purpose in our podcast, because you've got to be able to get up every morning and say, yes, I'm going to work every day because I work for an organisation in the industry that has purpose. Talk to me about your perspective on why finance is a great career to have on that factor of purpose.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    It's interesting that the notion of finance because I always just wanted to go into business. It just was the notion I wasn't going in for purpose, I was going in because I loved business and I love to be involved in being on the decision making side, making things happen, being involved in that echelon of the environment and the industry. But what became more concerning, and I think what it's played out, is that with the Royal Commission and some of the things that have played out, finance almost kind of started losing the perception of it having a purpose or having a heart. And it was rarely the notion. It's disconnected to the rest of the society and it is profit motivated. It's capitalism at its worst and it's kind of greed. Do I want that? And it almost became binary, I don't want that. So I'm not doing finance. And interesting, I did a session for F Three and one of my daughters schools to cohort or via twelve students, and it was a startling revelation for me to hear these year twelve cohorts talking about thinking finance only clips the ticket. They didn't value the fact that you had more money to travel or do stuff, they just discounted that.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    And it wasn't a priority. And there was an absolute disillusionment with finance. It amazed me because I don't think I ever got into finance because I was greedy or kind of wanted to do it. I was always kind of recognising the value of understanding how businesses work, being part of business. And for me, the thing that crystallises was Paul Smith, the Exeo of CFA, gave a presentation on the purpose of finance and he spoke about it. And I think what he did was crystallise the words that a lot of us were thinking. But he pulled it together and the CFA contains a lot of that where it basically says finance is a Noble profession in essence, ensures that economies grow, that organisations make money, that they invest, that they produce, that people earn money, that they are able to function, that's the good and the oil that almost greases society to kind of allow it to happen. Because reality is everything costs money and things cost money. If it's not money, it is time, it's a resource. There's a trade off that happens. And finance took a bit of a turn in the last while where this perception of it has no purpose, it has no heart.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I absolutely and totally disagree. Finance very much. Yes, it has the perception that it was disconnected from society. But what it does mean and what finance has done for me is ensure that any organisation that you go into, you can understand how it works, regardless of whether it's a charity, it's a stockbroker, it's a closed producer. You need to understand because you have to keep the lights on some way and you need to actually source the goods. And if you don't actually understand how that works and how that functions, it doesn't work.

     

    Camilla Love

    And that's a great synopsis, because I like you are very passionate about this industry, and I don't understand that perception because I've never seen that perception in action. We do all have a purpose, and it is 99% of us in finance put the client at the heart of every decision that we make. So as with all people and organisations, there's always that 1% that do the wrong thing. But that's not the perception of the rest of the industry. And I think that that's right. I mean, businesses can't take loans to grow and the financial profession can't facilitate those loans. The economy and people just in general would be way worse off.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Absolutely. You've kind of got me on to kind of going on this area, because I go on the notion of people can be greedy and they can be hungry to accumulate assets and be money driven by assets. And that's fine, because that's their drive and that's their purpose. But that can be accommodated in any industry and that's not a blanket kind of thing. Finance does that. And maybe you want those people that actually don't tick your boxes because they might be the people that are incredible stock pickers. They give you outsize returns, and you basically are taking a bit of an incentive based where you invest alongside them and they do what they do because they are arrogant and aggressive and greedy. And you know what, that's fine for that part, but that is not indicative of what finance is.

     

    Camilla Love

    Indeed. Indeed, you mentioned Paul Smith and CFA. You do a lot with the CFA, particularly here in Australia. Why are you so involved here?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I did a CFA qualification, so I'm a Chartered accountant qualification. That was my first foray when I entered into the business environment, but never practises a Chartered accountant. I use it as a groundwork to get into business. But when I immigrated, I didn't want to re qualify as a Chartered accountant because I wasn't practising as an accountant. I've moved into funds management at that stage. And what I needed was a global qualification which would allow me to enter into another market. We had a recognised qualification without going back to re qualify. And I did the CFA programme, which was back in 2003. And to be quite honest, in the early days, it actually didn't really make much of a difference. It kind of was on my resume. No one actually said to me, do you have a set? But I think what's interesting and I can't actually hit home more loudly, is those qualifications are the key to get you through the door. And just by the fact of having a Chartered Accountant degree and then having the CFA, which has a global relevance and recognition, kind of lets you legitimise you and gives you a seat at the table, and then it's up to you what you choose to do with it.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So I've continued ongoing learning and I can't stress the importance of almost. When I said to you about almost, you make a call to go down one way and it's not the right way. I've got two daughters that are in uni now and they're not sure it's the right course that I'm doing. And I've kind of said to them, Whatever course you're doing, you're learning. You may not use it tomorrow. I never practise as a Chartered accountant. Now that I sit as a direct on businesses, the fact that I'm a Chartered accountant and I actually understand numbers are comfortable with risk in those areas. I cannot thank whoever the stars that enabled me to actually do that charge of the accounting degree, because it actually has set me up for the next stage of my career. So when we look at this whole notion of this 100 year life or this notion of multiple careers that people will have you kind of put the pieces in place so you could choose to do an arts degree or you could choose to do a finance degree or something, it may be not used in that very next job, but it will be a component.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    And as the world becomes more competitive and the requirement for application of knowledge, not necessarily because we all have computers and everything will be on hand. The fact of your multiple perspectives and learnings on different areas and different insights from different areas just make you stronger going forward.

     

    Camilla Love

    And that's a really great point to make because you get asked a lot. Will my marks make a difference at the end of University? And really, it's the fact that you've got a degree. I don't think anyone has asked me ever what my Econometrics 101 course marks were. So, yeah, it is, definitely. And that learning mindset. I think everybody needs to have that going forward, to be flexible and to be adaptable in their careers. So I think that that's a critical point to make.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Absolutely.

     

    Camilla Love

    So talk to me about a trend that you're seeing in the finance industry right now and how that's influencing you and your role, sitting across multiple different organisations, whether that be superannuation and government and listed organisations.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    We've spoken by purpose. I think Anna Dougsky was Cop 26 just happening and the whole climate, responsible investing, stewardship, the whole notion of leaving the world a better place, or at least not allowing it to deteriorate further from where it actually is. And the responsibilities that we have to future generations kind of is front of mind of everyone. I mean, we're talking just off to Cop 26. That's particularly pertinent at this point in time indeed. But I think what's interesting is this whole notion of understanding the responsibilities that we have. And so if you look at what finance is dealing with at the moment, it's the whole notion of do banks lend to certain players? How do you keep reskilling people as you move out of certain industries, as we move to more sustainable industries going forward? So the reskilling aspect that's there people living longer.

     

    Camilla Love

    Health care and the impacts of ageing, I think is also an area that's extensive within the finance industry as well.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    It's major because the notion of you living longer, you need to fund it somehow. So it's kind of the notion of funding where you're going. So if I looked at a trend and when I look at my next learning will be is I will do either a formal course or an informal learning within the sustainable space or the impact space, because that area has grown, is changing so rapidly at the moment in terms of how you measure it, the different indices that I play, different structures, and I think to actually understand some of the foundations that are being there, as much as I read it, I come across in most of my boards from some perspective, it's dealt with. I think that if I kind of go back and invest a little bit in some learning and we're living in a time now, I can do sign up to cosera, see if they have a new SG course or market learning, I can go into that. I can do a bit of an immersion. So I get a bit of the foundations. I don't need to do a whole three year course and I can kind of set myself.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So when the discussion happens, I can take it to the next level. So when I look at trends that are happening, I think a lot of that will be that, yeah, okay.

     

    Camilla Love

    And we talk about ESG and sustainability and impact a lot on the podcast and what we've seen at Cop 26 as well. And we know people who are there from an investment point of view as well, which I think is really exciting to have a seat at the table while all these global leaders are talking about it. And then the flow on effects of what does it mean in finance, because I think the next ten years we will definitely see some boundaries set here on lending on even like social impact housing and even just their micro things to think about. But how can the finance industry really help the transition of all our global economies into a more sustainable footprint? And I think that that's a really Noble thing for the industry to put their sites on and help everyone move to that.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Absolutely.

     

    Camilla Love

    So I always ask my guests this last question and obviously you're going to be no different. But it's interesting. You've had a long and extensive career. You've got a lot of advice over your period of time working in the industry. What is the best career advice that you've been given and why did it resonate the most with you?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I think in terms of the best career advice, you pick up advice wherever you go. And I've always kind of valued and always respect the diversity of opinions. So what advice that I've done is kind of recognised to listen to, listen to what people say, to hear the different perspectives, to kind of expose yourself to as diverse as you can actually be exposed to, so that you never become two tunnel vision in one perspective. And it may not be something you understand or share in the theme.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    But the fact that you have insights to that, there is a different way to do it just makes your thinking and perspectives that much greater. So have translated that over time was always the notion of saying every person in every role, senior, junior, or wherever it is, has a perspective that brings to the table. And it's about giving that bandwidth and the potential to actually listen. So if I translate it too early in my career, it's probably that notion of putting yourself out there, subscribing to a whole lot of stuff that you might or may not use going forward to valuing that people are calm to some extent. So it might be a lot of desk research you do yourself so that when you go forward, you're actually doing that stuff. And I think that notion of not being so hard on yourself go forward and actually take learnings from everything and recognise that it's not life or death, everything is going to actually play towards making you more rounded, giving you a better perspective, and kind of just keep going forward, just keep going forward and sticking by what's important to you and what your values are.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, and that's important. I think that's a great piece of advice and I hear that in you all the time. And the active listening piece is something that I always try to work on. I'm not very good at it and I'm sure you will know that I'm not very good at it, but I definitely try to actively listen and to actually find out the reason why the actual underlying so people tell you certain things but actually what is the actual underlying reason why they're telling you that? And getting great perspectives and different perspectives. It's hard because the group around you, you fall into group think and it's easy to stay in that spot. And it's actually hard for you to actually jump out of that piece and extend yourself into an area that you feel uncomfortable. It's really hard.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I think that's excellent. While you're talking and have replayed it back to me, it comes a little bit with age, that notion of kind of understanding. But if you're not going to do that, it's almost just kind of recognising where you actually are.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yes. And people are not necessarily comfortable in their own cells either. So being an understanding where you are at that point in time is really important. You're right. Such great Nuggets here, Sandi. So at the end of each episode, we do this quick fire round so people can get to know you a little bit more. And are you happy to be part of that because it can make you feel uncomfortable. Here's the uncomfortable spot. Okay, so let's go.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So the first question is my bucket list includes my bucket list includes probably going to a cop or 27 or 28 and being around the table and being involved with the calibre of people that have been attending those forums of being something that makes a difference to the future. I mean, the calibre of global interaction with global mind. So that's probably on my bucket list. I would love to be you and I.

     

    Camilla Love

    We can get tickets together. I don't know how we're going to wrangle our way in, but maybe we can pay money to it.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    The younger generations are more of a chance to kind of come with their perspective, be brave, know what you stand for and kind of own it.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. Okay. So that's a great bucket list. So next question. My hidden talent is organising trips.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I love to travel. And it's funny because a lot of my friends, when they're looking for something a little bit left field or something, that's a bit of an adventure. I get these calls to kind of say, we're thinking about this. What do you think we should do? What do you think about this? Which restaurant? We're kind of looking at that and I think it's becoming a bit of a passion project. I think you need to live life and kind of experience. And so I'm always on. Unfortunately, my husband and my family are very able allies or just kind of get ready to be taken along to new places or trying new things or doing that then good on them. So that's my hidden talent. It's covered field.

     

    Camilla Love

    No, I totally love it.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    My first investment was my first investment was in a share in a business and my father worked in that listed and that was going to list. And it was, do you want to put a little bit of money in it and kind of watch it. And it gave me the opportunity to kind of watch a business go off market, go on to market, see how the share price went, see what was going. So it was a good entree into investing and to be kind of maybe it was that they planted the seed. But thanks. I've always loved investing in markets. As I've got further on in my career, what I've done a lot more is probably invested and recognised great investors and invested into them and recognising that. Maybe when I can have a belief in a certain business, it's probably I don't have the time because I'm now working too hard to actually manage my portfolio as it's going. And I quite like the innovation space. So if I can put some money into like, new ideas, maybe a little bit of crypto learn when I'm going, I kind of quite like, that.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great. My favourite book is my favourite book.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    It's such a hard thing to actually say which is my favourite book because I love to read, but in reality I've gone from reading. Love the Harry Potter series. Consult more about that girl, The Dragon Tattoo. Loved that series. Read that. I've loved learning books. So Malcolm Gladwell outliers. Love that book.

     

    Camilla Love

    So good. Love, Malcolm.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Success isn't necessarily everything that you do. Sometimes you need the environment to support what you're doing. I love Seth goddamn. I read The Purple Cow. Someone gave it to me on how you have to differentiate yourself. And Interestingly, Malcolm Goodwill, Seth, goddamn all these people. As I read their books, I kind of follow them and then they send their daily pearls of wisdom. So Ray Daniel wrote Principles.

     

    Camilla Love

    I haven't read that book yet.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Ray Dalio. Yeah. Once you read it, you subscribe to it. I subscribe to a whole lot of stuff. I've got my pile of reading ready for Christmas reading. I've got Hollywood reading Edge. I've got The Fish Rocks from the Head.

     

    Camilla Love

    Oh, yes.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I've got the secure board from Analybel. So I've got my hands some fictional stuff mixed in there. So I like science fiction. I read a bit of science fiction.

     

    Camilla Love

    I didn't know that about you.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    There you go.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay. So there's lots. That's a big reading list for those people out there.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I don't necessarily read all the books cover to cover. I can be reading multiple books and some of them unless it's a fictional book that you read from cover to cover. A lot of these other books are pearls of wisdom that you kind of keep going back to.

     

    Camilla Love

    Tell me something that no one knows about you.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Oh my gosh. I have twin sisters. Identical twin sisters that are mirror twins. So one is left handed and one is right handed. One has a beauty spot on one side. One has a beauty spot on the other side.

     

    Camilla Love

    Get out.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    So that's very interesting. So that kind of opened up the whole kind of area of twins versus siblings and the connections that they have. And I am a big follower in spiritualism. I like spiritualism and meditation and meaningfulness, and that esoteric life beyond.

     

    Camilla Love

    Do you practise every day?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    No, it depends on the stages of laugh. I'd like to say that the years that I've got and the times I do it are great. Unfortunately, I'm not always that grounded to do it, but I always aspire to get there.

     

    Camilla Love

    It's on the hashtag goals list, right. If you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    I think I'm tossing up between David Attenborough Jane Goodall is the theme. Eddie Jaku, who just passed away on The Happiest Man.

     

    Camilla Love

    Have you read his book?

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Yes, I do. It's beautiful. I have his book, and I've listened to him talk. And just the perspective that he brings, it kind of always kind of brings you back to the roots of what you need to be looking at. So I think each of those kind of have those commonalities that they've just got such great perspectives and led such meaningful life and would love to be able to speak with them and just kind of hear what their perspectives are looking back on it all.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. Just the pearls of wisdom that would come for even half an hour with them would be amazing. Absolutely. Wow. My last question is complete this sentence, a career in finance is it gives you the foundation.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    It sets you up to go into whatever you're going to do. So you'll never look back on studying finance and being able to understand numbers, whatever industry you choose to do, even if it's running your home. So cannot underplay the importance of being able to understand numbers.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And we talk about that all the time. You don't have to be a genius. You just need to understand it a little bit. I mean, even going to the shops, you need to understand the numbers. I think that's a really great Pearl of wisdom there's your own Pearl of wisdom that you're giving to everybody else today. So thank you very much. And that's the end of our podcast. And I've just really enjoyed our chat today, Sandi. So thank you very much for joining us on Shares Not Shoes and being so entertaining and just generous with your ideas and thoughts.

     

    Sandi Orleow

    Thanks, Kim. I love talking to you, as I always do. And I love the name Shares Not Shoes. So good on you, and I love the work that you're doing. So thank you very much.

     

    Camilla Love

    Well, hopefully we'll invite you back and give us some more pearls of wisdom. For more information on our guests on Shares Not Shoes and further episodes, head to Shares Notchoose.com. And for more information on what we do at F Three, head to F Three.com. Au, I look forward to you joining us. Next episode where we continue to interview some fabulous people just like Sandi here today and give you the inside scoop on careers in finance. Bye for now, you know the information that is in this podcast. We always talk about finance in this podcast but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about out careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S2.Ep2: Getting out of your Comfort Zone with Angela Zha

Meet the talented Angela, a university student who enjoys art, creative writing and is enthusiastically pursuing a career in finance.

  • The following is a transcript created using AI technology so please forgive any grammatical imperfections.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome, everyone, back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes, an Insider's guide to careers in finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of Future Females in Finance. Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview someone of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest, and will inspire you. So let's go.

     

    Camilla Love

    This week's episode, we are joined by someone who truly impresses me every day and we get to work together on F Three. Her name is Angela Zha and she is a current student doing commerce at the University of Sydney. Welcome, Angela, and thanks for joining me today.

     

    Angela Zha

    Thanks for having me today, Camilla.

     

    Camilla Love

    It's great that you have been able to say yes to my invitation to come onto the podcast. I really want you to share your journey through at University and sort of give people an understanding, particularly through your eyes and some of your peers and your friends eyes, about why doing a commerce degree and why going through University and aiming to have a finance career is a goal of yours. And I've chosen Angela because you're going through lots of things that everyone is going through at Uni every day, lots of different learning experiences, you're trying to get great marks, you're doing different things, you're doing a lot of student societies, you've had a scholarship, you're lucky. And so we'll talk about that in a little bit. And then why you're interested in a career in finance as your next step, in your first big step, I guess, into your career. So I look forward to you telling and sharing everybody with your story today. So maybe we should start from the top and tell me a little bit about you, your background, what you did at school, even some subjects that you did at school and why you chose them, maybe even some extra curricular stuff that you did leading up to going to and hitting University.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah, sounds great. So I would say I was a student who always enjoyed quantitative subjects at school, but it so happened that I always did better in English than math. So always the way, unfortunately. So my choice of subjects in the senior years, it was always guided by what I was interested in rather than what I thought would scale better or what I thought might lead to jobs. For example, I took extension to English because I love the breadth of topics that we got to study, which linked to all sorts of areas like philosophy and history. And I thought that was really interesting. And I loved working on my major work as well. I also took excess.

     

    Camilla Love

    I said art. Hang on, hang on to the art piece. I am a big fan of art. What did you do for your major work? Talk to me about that.

     

    Angela Zha

    So it was mostly a piece of writing but I did do some art in it because I thought I would get a bit creative for it and then mix things up. So as part of extension English you do a major work that's either creative writing or essay writing, whatever is your choice. And then I did one which was critical writing but I thought I'd mix some elements of creative writing in there and I wrote some poems, I put in some drawings of mine and then in the end it was very mixed media and it was really fun to do Fab and it's not often like it's funny because you think about it.

     

    Camilla Love

    You think school is sort of reasonably rigid and you've got lots of boundaries and it's just nice to hear that you're able to sort of flex your creativity and your creative muscle to do some great stuff in your English. Yes.

     

    Angela Zha

    School is what you make of it.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, absolutely. So what else did you do at school?

     

    Angela Zha

    So I took accelerated maths in year eleven and then that left enough space for me to do extension to maths in year twelve because like I said, I really enjoy the quantitative subjects. That was really challenging but I thought it was a really good process because I always have this sense of fulfilment when I solve a really complex math question and I feel so proud of myself.

     

    Camilla Love

    Do we all? So then did you do any like science and you mentioned history? Did you do any in history as well?

     

    Angela Zha

    No, I didn't do history and I would say I'm not a very sciencey person. I didn't enjoy it too much in the junior years but I did do a lot of languages so I really enjoyed German so much that I did German extension in high school and also my German teacher was fantastic so it was really cool and I love learning about different cultures.

     

    Camilla Love

    There's nothing better than having a really good teacher to guide you, particularly when you're in any subject really. But I did German in year eleven and I just wish I had a teacher. As you can tell, when you talk about it you can hear the bright spark in your voice about talking about your teacher. And it's funny how I had one of those teachers in geography and the teacher's name is Mr. Keller and he's like most awesome teacher and he's still teaching geography these days and he's still equally as awesome. So I love those stories because it makes you feel more comfortable. It makes you get better marks.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yes, definitely.

     

    Camilla Love

    And so German is very different to extension English. So how did you marry those two up together?

     

    Angela Zha

    I would say learning German actually helps with my own English writing because as a native English Speaker you don't notice it so much. But there are a lot of different grammatical conventions that you don't exactly know when you grow up. You just use it in everyday life. But then when you learn a different language, you start to learn about former grammatical structures and how syntax and grammar they all come together. And that makes you more aware of your own writing when you do writing in English.

     

    Camilla Love

    So let's talk a little bit about your math. You liked maths? Did you think it was easy for you to do math?

     

    Angela Zha

    I didn't think it was like easy, but I think I did well in it. So it was definitely challenging, especially extension too, because I didn't do science and there were definitely physics elements in there, such as the mechanics topics. But I also had a really good teacher and I had really good classmates as well and we were all really supportive, so that definitely helped me get through it.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great. And now do you have people who are in finance around you? Like, is your mom and dad or uncle? Are they anyone in finance around you?

     

    Angela Zha

    Not particularly, I guess my uncle is in accounting, but my parents are not in finance.

     

    Camilla Love

    When I go and talk to schools and school students in years 10, 11 and twelve and you can tell people who are interested in finance around them, they have the language of talking about finance and understanding and interest in finance. But those people who have parents or people who have influence around them that don't have finance, they're interested in other things, obviously. So I always found that when I was talking to kids at school about careers in finance that it was not necessarily a difficult topic to have a discussion about, but rather a topic that is unknown for a lot of people. Did you find that?

     

    Angela Zha

    I think initially at first, but it did help because I took business studies in high school as an accelerated subject. So it didn't end up counting towards my HSC. But I took it in years nine and ten and there was a finance topic in that and that was my favourite topic out of the whole course. So I thought, yes, I like finance, I want to study it more at University. But I did find out when I first got to interact with the topic, I didn't know too much of what was going on and then it was earning through learning more about it and then reading the news, talking to my teacher that I got the finance terminology and then learn more about the industry, even though when I first came to University, I still, to be honest, didn't know what a person in finance did. And I just chose the subject because I had enjoyed it in high school and I thought it was more maths heavy than some of the other subjects under the business school. I did find that I really enjoyed the subjects. And also one cool thing about the business school is that it offers lots of networking sessions and events for you to meet industry professionals.

     

    Angela Zha

    So talking to them really opens your eyes, lets you get your foot into the industry, know more about it and find out where you could fit.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, that's a great way of thinking about it. And maybe we should jump we'll come back to that. I think that's a really important piece. Let's talk about. So you finished school and were you happy with your mark for high school?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah, I was happy with my mark.

     

    Camilla Love

    Did you get into the first choice of what you wanted to do with uni?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah, I did. And it also landed me a scholarship for University as well, for the duration of my degree. So I was happy with it.

     

    Camilla Love

    So did you put your hand up for the scholarship or were you given the scholarship? Because I was also a scholarship recipient for my MBA at HSM. But lots of people go, I don't know if I'd ever get a scholarship, but my message is always, you've got to be in it to win it. What's your view on here and how did you go about finding scholarships to apply for and things like that?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah. So during year twelve, our careers adviser told us to go out there and apply for scholarships. And I also went on to the University's website and looked at what scholarships they offer. I did apply for a few, including, for example, the Sydney Scholars Award. I didn't end up getting it unfortunately, but I was awarded the Chancellor's Award at the end of year twelve, so I was fortunate to get that.

     

    Camilla Love

    And so what does the scholarship mean at University for you?

     

    Angela Zha

    I guess it means that I'm able to fund my studies more easily and it gives me more chances to meet other people at University. For example, before University started, a lot of award recipients were invited to this event and networking session where they got to meet with each other and discover more that University get access to more resources. So that's definitely been a major help.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, right. So if you're a student out there and you're listening to what you have to say, is there any advice that you would give people who are looking at scholarships?

     

    Angela Zha

    I would say, look inside yourself and don't be afraid to talk yourself up, because for the scholarships, you must let them know who you are and let your passion shine through. Some people might think, oh, I don't want to sound boastful or arrogant, but, you know, the University is not going to know about your strengths and who you are unless you tell them. So really let your passion and your interests shine through.

     

    Camilla Love

    That is a great advice, Angela's advice. And I think that goes for not even people who are at school applying for scholarships. That goes for everybody. So why did you apply for a University? And tell me a little bit about your uni journey. Are you involved in other student societies? What majors are you doing? Why did you choose them? Tell us about your uni journey.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah, sure. So as you mentioned before, I'm doing a commerce degree at Sydney University and I major in finance and economics on the finance side. As I said previously, I've had a bit of exposure to it from high school. And as for economics, Funnily enough, I had studied it in year eleven and then dropped it because I thought it was boring. And then when I got to University I changed my mind and I was like, oh, it's actually not too bad. And then now I'm majoring in economics as well. So there's a bit of a mixed journey there, but I enjoy my majors really much. I think they both have that combination of quantitative and qualitative elements which I enjoy, and they both require you to apply both technical knowledge and interact with other people in a team, which I think is really important these days in the industry. And then within University. I was really excited to join lots of student societies in my first year. I remember at orientation week I went around and then I signed up to all these different societies.

     

    Camilla Love

    I think I joined the Chocolate Society.

     

    Angela Zha

    Oh yeah, me too. That was so fun.

     

    Camilla Love

    So did you get involved in any of them at a higher level? Because a lot of people join as a member, but never really sort of get involved in any of the networking or any of the events that they do or even in the leadership capabilities that are offered by the societies.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah. So in my first year I was an editor and writer for the business school publication called Inside Enterprise. And as part of that I've got to host or co host an event that launched our flagship magazine and also interact with industry professionals as well. And in my second year I was an artist for the University newspaper Honi Soit. And as I mentioned previously, I enjoy drawing and art, so that was definitely something that spoke to my passion. Then in my third year I was a marketing director for the University Network of investing and trading within the business school.

     

    Camilla Love

    So at University I always talk about using University as a loose framework to learn other stuff that you might not necessarily have the opportunity to learn at any other time. When you sat down and chose your subjects. And obviously we've talked about your majors, what other areas did you say? Okay, I'm really interested in learning in that slightly a bit left of centre or just interesting to me that I'm going to do for sort of passion or interest sake rather than necessarily hitting it on the head for your major.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah. So I took a lot of electives which are not actually relevant for my majors. For example, in my second year, I took this elective called Cultures of Food. That was really fun because the final assignment was that you go to a restaurant, you eat, and then you write about your experience. So that was such a fun assignment.

     

    Camilla Love

    So where did you choose? Were you a critic or were you just talking about the culture of the food and the culture and the history?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yes. So I went to this Italian restaurant because you could choose a country to focus on. And I chose Italian food. I love Italian food. And I went there. I had an interview with one of the chefs. I ate, I took photos, selfies, and then I uploaded them, and I wrote about the history of Italian food, how it evolved, and what my experience was like.

     

    Camilla Love

    That is such a great example of the learning capabilities that you have at University that it doesn't just have to be so serious. You can actually take a slight bent on doing stuff that's really unusual. Like, I think I did French film. Right.

     

    Angela Zha

    Interesting.

     

    Camilla Love

    So you never get those opportunities to learn necessarily, in a formal setting about stuff that you wouldn't normally choose. Italian history is rich off, and food is at the centre of it. Just even thinking about conquests and the whole Roman Empire across different cultures. And Italian food is a mixed mash of how it's all been put together. Yeah, I love it.

     

     

    Definitely.

     

    Camilla Love

    So what did you eat? Pizza or set in a very nice accent, too. Thank you. So let's talk about the mix of the scholarship and then your degree at the same time. How do you juggle? Because there's obviously things you have to do for your scholarship. How do you juggle that? As well as doing the normal rigours of what you would normally for your degree?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah. So for my scholarship, one requirement is that I maintain a distinction Wam for the duration of my degree. So that is definitely a requirement on my academic studies. But then also outside of University, I also have other commitments, such as my social life, my part time work, as well as my hobbies, including sport and drawing. So I would say to juggle the rigours of University, it really helps to have a good schedule. I like to keep my calendar organised and plan out well in advance when I would start my assignments or when I would study for exams. And this really helps me to avoid procrastination or last minute cramming when things come up.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, everyone goes through it, but at least you can plan.

     

    Angela Zha

    Indeed. And then before an exam period comes up, I do draw up a physical calendar in front of me because I like to see things even when I'm not on my device. And then I would paste that onto my wall and then I would plan out the cake. Today I'm doing this tomorrow. I'm doing that, and I would plan that out alongside with things like running or reading into my daily schedule. So I would know exactly when I would do what. And I would say that really helps me with my time management.

     

    Camilla Love

    And it's important, particularly if you hold that scholarship, that you are living up to all the criteria of that scholarship. So I totally understand a distinction Wam is very difficult to get. Congratulations on keeping that up over your time at University. It's important. So we talked a little bit about you doing finance in business studies at school. So when you got to University and you've done a finance major, when was it that you knew you wanted to have a career in finance? And why was that?

     

    Angela Zha

    So I think I wanted to have a career in finance when I got to do internships in it and I got to interact with people in the industry and find out exactly what work they do. So, for example, one internship that I did is one offered by the business school. It's called an internship placement program. And you apply towards the business school just like you do for a job. You submit an application, do a video interview, assessment centre and a final interview. And after all that, I got matched with a bank in the equity research Department. And at first that was really quite challenging because my manager just tossed this company at me and said, Go do an initiation coverage. And I was like, what? All by myself?

     

    Camilla Love

    What's an initiation coverage? No.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah, it was a really steep learning curve, but fortunately, I had a really great and supportive team around me and they provided lots of resources and past examples of models that they have done. And it also enabled me to communicate with senior executives of the company that I was covering and find out their perspectives. So that all really helped with me completing my task over the course of my internship. And I thought that that was a really great opportunity to learn about what work is like in the industry and to see the dynamics of a team from inside rather than from outside, from the perspective of a student. And then another internship that I did is one with FThree, actually. And that was a really exciting experience. My team focused on a portfolio management case and our task was to research different portfolio managers in Australia and evaluate their investment strategies. This was really exciting because it enabled me to apply what I had learned at University to a practical scenario while working with a very motivated and driven team. That was a really rewarding experience as well, which consolidated my interest in finance.

     

    Camilla Love

    Great. So let's talk about that internship. Did you have to apply? So let's not talk about FThree for a second, but let's talk about the one that's the business school. Do you have to go and apply for those internships. And how did you go about how did you feel applying for those internships, or is it just part of the course and I just get to do it?

     

    Angela Zha

    It's not part of the course, unfortunately. I wish it was. Not every student has to do one, but most students do because they offer these on a very frequent basis throughout the year. So it's a partnership that the business school has with companies outside, and you apply to the business school rather than directly to companies outside. And then if you're successful in getting through the different rounds that I mentioned earlier, then the business school will match you with a firm such as I've heard brands like LVMH, Nestle, really big brands out there, and then match you with a company. And then you'll go and do an internship, either part time during the semester or full time within your summer break, and you get to earn credit points for that.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay, great. Let's talk about being thrown in the deep end there, because let's do an initiation coverage of this company because you can't just go and sort of lean back onto your University studies there. You've actually got to have a lot of soft skills that you've developed over time to be able to go. Okay, cool. I have no idea about what I'm doing here because I've been just dumped in the deep end. You talked about your team and the team environment that you had. What's the importance of soft skills in a situation like that?

     

    Angela Zha

    I think communication is really important. You need to communicate well with your team and then ask questions when you need it because the team won't know if you have questions unless you ask them. And I would also say time management is important as well because I had a set deadline for when I would finish my internship, and I wanted to get as much done as I hope to. So I would set goals for myself over every once few weeks to know what I had achieved.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, great. And I think it's important to have a very supporting team around you to actually go, okay, this person is struggling. I can see that she's struggling here. Let's do as much help as we can because lots of people think that that investment banking environment isn't overly supportive where it actually is. And that's what you're telling me, right?

     

    Angela Zha

    It is, yeah. One of my colleagues in a different team, I would often see her at noon, just go to the gym, come back changed, and then sit back at her desk and start work again. Or I would see people from my own team go out and have lunch at different hours of the day if they are meeting up with a friend and then come back and do work afterwards. And everyone understands that and is really supportive of that.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And I think that that's really important because who you are at work and what you do around keeping yourself sane and healthy and what you enjoy doing is available within work hours. Just you need to sort of give a little on one side to get a little on the other. So I'm a big advocate of using my lunch break. I don't matter how many hours I happen to want to work that day, but just as long as I have my lunch break to go to the gym, I'm perfectly fine and I'm sane. So you mentioned that we met during one of Fthree's work experience placements. Tell me. So you mentioned also about the project that you did. How did you find the process and the environment that you were in? And would you recommend this experience to other Uni students who are listening today?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yup. So the process was really supportive. Once again, our team was matched with a wonderful mentor. And every week when we have meetings, she would teach us a bit of theory about a particular topic, which might be helpful for our case. But also what she would do is that she would arrange weekly meetings with senior executives from the company who are based all over the globe. So maybe this week we'd be speeding to a top executive based in Sydney, next week in Singapore, the week after in the United States. And that was so exciting because I got to learn about their stories and has opened my eyes to the world out there in finance in different roles. So I would say if you're listening right now and considering FThree, definitely apply for it.

     

    Camilla Love

    Thanks, Angela. It is really important. So our view at FThree, yours and mine is to ensure that not only are we giving you the practical work experience that you need to put on your CV and give you some of the skills and arm you with some knowledge, but it's also there to give you an understanding of what the value chain looks like and where the problem is within financial services and how it sits within the industry and why it's important. But also too to actually give you the network that you need to start in the industry, which I think is really important because students like yourself and your shoes go, okay, great. I've done my degree and I'd like to go into finance, but I actually don't know anyone in finance. So how am I going to get myself a job? Well, FThree is there to at least give you, if not ten people, 15 people that you would have met along the way. And it's great that they introduce you to their colleagues offshore because different markets are doing different things and people have different stories to tell about their experiences. And where they've come from.

     

    Camilla Love

    So it's been great that you took that away from a journey.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    So I always ask all my guests the same question towards the end, which is what's the best career advice that you have been given and why did it resonate with you? The best and the reason why I'm asking for that, because it's a great culmination of different people's perspectives on careers advice and little Nuggets that you can sort of take away and apply today. So what career advice did you get?

     

    Angela Zha

    So my manager once said to me, don't be afraid to go outside of your comfort zone and network. Those are something that we touched on previously. But I think this is a really important piece of advice, especially in financial services. It's only through talking to other people that you can find out more about the industry and whether you enjoy the work. And talking to people also helps you build your network. So that when it comes to applying for jobs, the fact that you know someone who works there and can show that you understand the role and explain why that role appeals to you, that really makes a difference, and you will stand out so much more in the application process. Networking also shows that you have the motivation and drive to put yourself out there. And I would say that I sometimes could be quite shy, but as my manager said, people are friendly and willing to help, and the worst that can happen is that they don't reply to you. But there are endless possibilities of good things that can come out of you just reaching out.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And that is perfect advice, because I love networking, but I appreciate that there are lots of people out there who are scared of it or don't love it or uncomfortable, whatever. Which way? But Practise makes perfect in that space. And my top tip is just the first thing to do when you're in a room of people that you don't know is to just smile, because that will definitely take down barriers and make your welcoming and just puts a bright spark in everyone's day when you smile. So I think that's a fabulous piece of advice.

     

    Angela Zha

    Great.

     

    Camilla Love

    So, Angela, we're nearly at the end here, and we do this quick fire round of you got to say what's exactly in your head to the questions that I ask you for something a little challenging.

     

    Angela Zha

    Sure.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay, good. This is all about allowing people to get to know you a little bit. Okay. So the first question is, if you could live in any country in the world.

     

    Angela Zha

    What would it be and why… that's tough. I think Singapore because it's such an exciting city with a wonderful mix of cultures. And I also think the food that is amazing.

     

    Camilla Love

    You should have done Singaporean food for your subject.

    Angela Zha

    I should have.

    Camilla Love

    Yeah, indeed. What is it? The salt and pepper crabs down at the.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah, the crabs.

     

    Camilla Love

    I haven't been to Singapore in a really long time, but I still remember those food markets down there.

     

    Angela Zha

    I remember Queuing for ages there. Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    Oh, gosh, yeah. Because everyone heads there. Right?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    So the next question is, who’s your favourite superhero?

    Angela Zha

    My favourite superhero is Captain Marvel.

    Camilla Love

    Captain Marvel. Why?

     

    Angela Zha

    I thought she really shines girl power in the film. She has a lot of resilience and I know that only so far she has only starred as the main character in one movie, but she just really stood out to me when I watched it.

     

    Camilla Love

    So maybe she should have her own. Should it be the main character in the next series?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yep.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay, next question. How would your friends describe you?

     

    Angela Zha

    Organised, loyal, diligent, and always willing to help out when they need me.

     

    Camilla Love

    That's nicely at the moment.

     

    Angela Zha

    I have FOMO of travelling overseas on the holidays.

     

    Camilla Love

    Doesn't everybody? Where would you go other than Singapore?

     

    Angela Zha

    I actually really want to go to New Zealand because I've never been before. I've heard such good stories about it and it's so close, but I've just never been and I really want to go.

     

    Camilla Love

    It is a great country. It is well worth travelling and spending some time there.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah. I'm also a big Lord of the Rings fan, so I want to go and see where they shop in the movies, see the Hobbit.

     

    Camilla Love

    It's an amazing country, so well worth saving the money and going to it.

     

    Angela Zha

    My first investment was an ETF.

     

    Camilla Love

    That's a great first start. And I'll give you that. That's a great first start.

     

    Angela Zha

    My favourite book is Gone With the Wind.

     

    Camilla Love

    Is it?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah. I love the book.

     

    Camilla Love

    That's very old school of you.

     

    Angela Zha

    And it would be my favourite movie too.

     

    Camilla Love

    Really?

     

    Angela Zha

    Yes.

     

    Camilla Love

    It's so long.

     

    Angela Zha

    I know, but it's my favourite movie.

     

    Camilla Love

    Why? Is it because of the love story or is the fact of the setting of the historical context that it's in? What was the best bit?

     

    Angela Zha

    I think when I read books, I tend to like the historical genre and so that first of all appealed to me and I think a lot of the themes really stood out and some of the topics that it evokes are just so interesting to discuss as well. And I think it was really interesting to learn about the history of the American Civil War period from a different perspective.

     

    Camilla Love

    Yeah. And there are lots of great, sort of deep themes that are resonating through that that are still quite current, obviously, today, which is important. If you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner.

     

    Angela Zha

    I would invite Vera Wang. She is a great inspiration to me and she is so entrepreneurial and resilient. And also another fun fact is that when I was a child, I always wanted to be a fashion designer.

     

    Camilla Love

    Hey, maybe if ever you get married, you could wear one of her fabulous dresses.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yes. That would be the dream.

     

    Camilla Love

    Wow. She's an interesting character, interesting cultural background, her impact on American fashion and global fashion. Really fabulous. Fabulous and really great globally known Asian leader, particularly who's female. So they're not necessarily a lot of them in that fashion area at all.

     

    Angela Zha

    Yeah.

     

    Camilla Love

    Last question. Describe why a career in finance would be awesome.

     

    Angela Zha

    So in a few words, it's exciting, it's inspiring, and I would say it's diverse.

     

    Camilla Love

    Okay. I love the fact that you've used diversity as one of your important points Because that's what we're all about here. It has not shoes in an Fthree and it's very important not only from an agenda point of view but also from a cultural and cognitive point of view as well. I think that the finance industry will be so excited to welcome you in. If somebody hasn't already snapped you up, there's definitely a fabulous and really bright career ahead of you in the finance industry, so I can't wait. When do you finish?

     

    Angela Zha

    So I finished my bachelor's degree this year, but I'm intending to do honours next year.

     

    Camilla Love

    So we've got a whole another year to wait, people, before she comes. So exciting. So thank you, Angela, for spending some time with us at shares not shoes today and telling us your journey because it's really important so not only for people who are in the industry to hear your story and understand the complexities of students going through school and University today, but also for those students who are thinking about having a career in finance or even thinking about doing a commerce degree or even just graduating their final years at school. It's a great story that you've had to tell and hopefully you can inspire a new influx of females into the financial services industry through the journey that you've been through and the stories that you've told today. So thanks. It's been really wonderful.

     

    Angela Zha

    I hope I provided some helpful tips for students out there and thank you so much again for having me today.

     

    Camilla Love

    No problem, Angela. So for more information on our guests at shares not shoes and further episodes, Head to sharesnotshoes.com and for more information on Fthree, head to Fthree.com au. As always, I look forward to you joining us next episode Where we continue to interview some fabulous people just like you've heard Angela and her stories today and give you the inside scoop into careers in finance. Bye, everybody. The information that is in this podcast.

     

    Camilla Love

    We always talk about finance in this podcast.

     

    Camilla Love

    But it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal and circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.

S2 Ep1: Defying Imposter Syndrome with Jacki Ellis

Introducing Jacki Ellis, a remarkable woman working in finance at her dream job as a portfolio manager for Aware Super.

  • The following is a transcript taken from the episode. It has been created with AI so please excuse any grammatical imperfections.

    Camilla Love

    Welcome, everyone, back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes, an Insider's guide to careers in finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of Future Females in Finance. Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview someone of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We list a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest, and will inspire you. So let's go.

    


    Camilla Love

    Today, I am so super excited to introduce you to Jacki Ellis. Jacki is the portfolio manager of retirement strategy at Aware Super, one of Australia's largest superannuation fund. And Jacki and I have known each other for maybe ten years.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah, maybe more than ten years.

    


    Camilla Love

    We're so young. Jacki.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Oh, my God. Stop it. You're making me feel reminding me that I have to come over this year.

    


    Camilla Love

    Yes, we won't. So today, Jacki, thank you for joining us on Shares Not Shoes.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Thank you so much for having me, Camilla. I'm delighted to be here.

    


    Camilla Love

    Fabulous. So, Jacki, let's start and say, can you introduce who you are and what you do and why you love it?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    So as you've just heard, I am the portfolio manager for retirement strategy at Aware Super, which is my dream job. I feel very fortunate to have this role. I love what I do. I'm sort of responsible for working out how we, as a super fund of a million members, can do a much better job of personalising the way we manage our members money to meet the specific needs of each of our members, and in particular, how we can help them understand what they need to meet their goals in retirement and give them really clever and smart and personalised strategies for actually drawing down on those savings so that they can live life large in retirement like they no doubt deserve it.

    


    Camilla Love

    Absolutely.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    It's very exciting because as an industry, we've spent a really long time working out how to make money and accumulate wealth for members. But as yet, we're not great at supporting members in actually drawing it down once they get to that magical retirement moment.

    


    Camilla Love

    So retirement is such an interesting space and something a topic that no one really ever wants to talk about because particularly when you're young, talking to a lot of our audience who haven't even thought about retirement. To me, retirement is the party stuff that you've worked so hard in your career to get to and have such a good time at that point. But then everyone's talking about at the moment, will we ever retire? What's your views here?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Look, I think that our views of retirement are really starting to evolve and become a bit richer. Previously, it was like you hit a point. You retired, you hoped you had enough money and you kind of made do with what you had when you got there. And maybe for some lucky people, that was inspiring. But often it was sort of a bit of a negative connotation. Getting the age pension for the government was seen as a bit of a handout, and there's a bit of stigma around that. I think that that's really changing in society at the moment. Certainly if you retire the way my mom has, she skis most of the year whenever she can, like sort of eternally jealous about her retirement. Of course, she is one of those lucky people in the Commonwealth Public Service. They got a defined benefit scheme where they have that promised income for life, and that creates a lot more certainty. And I feel like that's inspiration, though. We can make retirement this exciting moment where you get freedom and choice and the time that you choose to retirement, to retire will depend on you and your circumstances and what you want.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    And maybe you'll choose to keep working for a bit, or maybe you'll start doing other types of work that you've always wanted to do. There's a huge amount of fulfilment we get from working. And so I don't think that the goal is necessarily to stop working for everyone. I don't know that that's necessarily what retirement means anymore. It's more about that moment where you get your sort of financial independence to make choices on a daily basis about what you really want to do. And I think that's really exciting and empowering, and we should be celebrating it as a society.

    


    Camilla Love

    Indeed. And now I loved when you explained about what you did was all about personalising retirement. How do you do that? Because that's hardly. That's a hard thing to do for 1 million members who are your clients.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah, it's really hard for a shockingly large portion of our members. We don't even have the email address.

    


    Camilla Love

    Details, people, please.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    It really makes a difference because even if we have any kind of significant event or any kind of change, we have to mail out to so many members because we don't have the email address as it kills trees and it costs money unnecessarily. Please update your email address. But yeah, we have to get a lot better as an industry at knowing our members at the moment. We do that a lot through my team, from a research perspective, and we partner with some really clever academics who are really good at this sort of stuff. To really help understand that we do a lot of member testing now. Human Centred Design is here to stay in the industry, particularly when it comes to retirement, which is really very demand played. It's all about what the member wants. Ultimately, it's their money, their choice, and so we have to really work harder to understand that. And pretty much every other industry out there has gone through that evolution, we expect a lot of personalisation in our daily lives today. Superannuation is no different, it's just a really highly regulated industry, so there are a few extra hurdles to jump through, which I think is one of the reasons it hasn't quite happened yet.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    But we're well on the way and I think we'll see a sea change in that aspect of super over the next decade for sure. Once you know things about members and once you get better at engaging with them on their terms without all of the jargon and lingo and ridiculous number of acronyms that do my head in, I use Jargon and I don't even realise it's Jargon. It's really funny because I'm the technical person, I'm the investment strategy team. So I do all of the really specifically technical bits and this is wonderful counterpart I have in product who gets me now after working with me for two years and she translates me and I don't even realise it was terrible. So I'm trying really hard to deognize myself as an important step on that process. But it's really hard if we don't know what personal goals are like. We don't know a member well enough to understand what they're actually trying to achieve in retirement. How can we possibly help them deliver on that?

    


    Camilla Love

    So how are you doing that? Like, how are you getting all the personal information to be able to do that unless you know their spending patterns and personal circumstances other than the dollar amount of their super balance?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah, I think it's going to be a combination of engaging with them effectively so that they tell us and really clever, smart nudges that we give them to say, well, given what you've told us about you, if you want to kind of maintain your lifestyle for retirement, which is where most members will start when you sort of talk to them about what they like in retirement, I just really like to keep living as I am as a sort of basic starting point. In many cases you don't need the same income in retirement to maintain your current lifestyle because a lot of expenses disappear for many people, although maybe this will change over time. They'll stop having to pay off a mortgage and things like that. They won't be paying nearly as much tax in retirement in many cases, no tax. Perhaps they won't have dependents to the same degree, although again, maybe that's sort of shifting a little bit and so often a replacement rate is 70% allows you to maintain your lifestyle and then you need to. Oh, I'm sorry, no, I do it again. You can hold me to account. Tam so that's just saying how much of your working life income you need in retirement to maintain your lifestyle.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    So five point 70% of the income before tax basis, then that will be enough for most people for the masses for them to maintain their lifestyle if you're in the wealthier end, it will be a bit lower than that. You might only need a half the income because you're not sort of theoretically, you're not supposed to be saving as much or a lot of wealthy people's income goes towards savings and sort of not really the point. And then actually the lowest income earners in society. The sad reality or how much of a divergence we have between the richer and the poor. Many of them actually get a pay rise in retirement because the age pension is quite generous relative to other supports in the system. And so often their replacement rate will be well over 100%. They'll be getting more money in retirement. So you have to sort of nuance these things. And that's why we have people like me who really dig into the research and think about it and help bring the richness of those details into the member experience that our marketing and product teams are building.

    


    Camilla Love

    So you described your job as your dream job. Why is it your dream job?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Well, it's never dull or boring. It's just pure problem solving. I get to have this wonderful mix of really geeky number crunching, and I'm a total geek at heart, and I love that. But I also the success for me is making a difference to members. I've got this huge opportunity to really add value. This year, we implemented a new default in super. The default is called my super. So a new default investment strategy for our members that's thoughtful about how their money is invested throughout their working life. And we expect to add about $100,000 to the balance of our younger members by the time they get to retirement. That adds up to, like, I don't know, $20 billion across family members because something stupid. And so being able to make a difference is really amazing. But I also get to network right across the firm. I work very heavily with the product team, with the digital team, with the advice team, with the marketing team, with the policy and advocacy teams all around this really kind of complex and interconnected idea of retirement. We can only deliver on that personalization dream if we're all connected and coherent for that single goal. So I really enjoy the mix that brings all of that together.

    


    Camilla Love

    Going back in time a little bit. You actually did a degree in finance and psychology.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yes.

    


    Camilla Love

    So why is that a good mix? And I think I know why that is a good mix. But tell me why you think that is a good mix.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Look super fortunate in hindsight, but a little secret. It was completely accidentally. In fact, I was going to become a psychologist. I was, which I would have been terrible at that because I'm a much better talker than I am. Alisa, Lisa, as you would know, I really am. I couch for you. I really care about people. That sort of aspect made sense and people are really interesting but I would have made a really bad psychologist, I think so fortunately for me, my bestie was really into the idea of doing a commerce degree she's a very pragmatic person, very likes numbers and all this sort of stuff, she works at the Absorber of statistics now she really loves numbers and stats and we just thought that you would be way more fun if we could do it together So we made this packed to both do a double degree so we could go through the degrees that we wanted but we could do them together and that was serious, that is how the very deliberate and well thought through and highly strategic way I came to do a commerce psychology degree I should really thank your best friend yeah Coach, which I do all the time because I love where I've ended up in life and a lot of that is the wonderful influence that she has had in my life to shout out to Lauren Ford thank you Dusty the best destiny ever but I love the story that it's always I'm not going to say a mistake but.

    


    Camilla Love

    You've fallen into it.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I've 100% fallen into my career from pretty much every step so somewhere along the line in my degree I just really enjoyed finance and one day I sort of woke up and I thought I just really enjoyed this the most and I went and I spoke to some of the lectures, my favourite lecturers in finance and they were doing some research in Behavioural finance which is just by far one of the more interesting aspects of finance, like why a market is crazy because it's like the culmination of millions of humans making silly decisions that they think logically but may or may not be exactly how interesting I thought oh wow, this is actually a wonderful way I can combine my two interests and so I ended up doing honours in finance and I did my own thesis in Behavioural finance and I totally loved it and then the next heavy accident was that I took so long because I also took some time out at Uni to go travelling and things I took so long at Uni in Canberra, some Canberra born and bred, I love that place, don't knock it and all my friends have left me come back and I thought Well, I want to fly their coup now, I want to hang out with my friends who've just come back So I got one of the few true finance jobs available in Canberra that was working at the Australian Office of Financial Management that sort of is the debt management arm of Treasury I had this amazing opportunity to do some really wonderful grad training through the treasury programme I met some amazing friends through that time too and my first ever boss ended up moving into an asset consulting firm and coached me six months later to follow him. And that was how I ended up in super because I just loved working with him and he was just fantastic. And the way he talked about his new job and the work that he was doing and the ability to sort of make a difference to Mums and Dads, I thought, oh, that's fantastic. And so I ended up there and then my next job was at Mercer again in investment consulting, where I got the absolute privilege of working with people like David Knox, who is a total short leader in the world of retirement and just completely fell in love with that as a problem and such an amazing opportunity. It's a problem that nobody in the world has solved. The Australia's at the forefront and we can't solve it. I am determined and, you know, I always do everything.

    


    Camilla Love

    I set myself one big hairy goal for the rest of the globe. Here's, Jacki, trying to solve it.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    That's what I'm going to do. That's probably the rest of my career sorted right there. It might take me that long at I'm it not sure.

    


    Camilla Love

    And then you'll retire and use your life.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I know. And then I'll be like, I'm so glad I did this for myself. So that's a win.

    


    Camilla Love

    That's fabulous. And then along the way you did some postgrad stuff. You did your CFA.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yes.

    


    Camilla Love

    Has this been important for you?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I think so in a way. Like it was finished studying. It was about ten years, I suppose, or close to it. And some of the detail was a bit rusty. And I have always suffered a little bit from imposter syndrome. I've never really thought of myself as remotely smart. I always just attribute any success to hard work and I know all my friends shake their heads. I know exactly that face. You guys just imagine the face that came into anything right now. That is usually. But look, I mean, that's why humans are interesting, right? We're all slightly crazy in our own way and that's my personal particular bent of that. And so it was really helpful for me. It covers kind of every 101 aspect to finance in a really detailed way and it's very black and white way of learning. I don't necessarily describe that. I think that context and conceptual problem solving is really important too. But in terms of just having that confidence, you across all of the basics. It was really useful. And I think having that sort of breadth and overview of all aspects of finance in the industry is always a really great grounding for anyone to have while they're an analyst. And so you can draw on that knowledge when you're sort of more senior and just your fingers in all sorts of pies all across the firm in the industry. Very helpful.

    


    Camilla Love

    Now, you mentioned you moved from your first role to your second role due to your boss right at the time. And I just reflect on the role of the mentors that you've had in your career to date and the importance that those type of people are to you. What would you say to the listeners out there today about the role of mentors and maybe even finding one, or what do you think of the benefits of it?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Having mentors is really important. I've tended to sort of collect them along the way. I think mostly just because I'm a real coupon person, I tend to sort of really value people and relationships. And so I take that time to build relationships with everyone that I'm working with. And I've had the great fortune of working with some amazing people, including some really senior women who have sort of been there and done it all before and gave me some really great advice. He sort of, in many ways only realised later that they were mentors. It was never a formal. I've actually never done formal mentoring where there's like you're meeting every, I don't know, three weeks and you got an agenda and all this sort of thing. I was just taking the opportunity to have the extra chats or to ask questions or to seek their feedback and building that sort of rapport and trust so that they'll also kind of say, hey, in a minute, what are you doing here? Why do you think about this? Why are you doing this? Have you stopped to consider that maybe you're the person who is responsible for you in your career and you're the only one who can know really what you want and you have to figure that out and you can't wait for someone else to do that for you?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    If you don't know what inspires and motivates you or why you're doing what you're doing, it's really up to you to find that out, and then you can ask the right questions and ask for the right help and people you kind of can say, this is what I want. It's very difficult for your bosses or other senior people to help you. And I've had the great fortune of managing a whole lot of analysts, including pools of analysts, in my time. And it's a really common thing for people in the early parts of their career sort of almost expect a really high degree of hand holding in terms of what's going to happen with their career and promotions and opportunities. And by far the best thing is to put your hand up and just ask for it. Managers excited and allows you to sort of tilt your career in the direction, things that interest you the most and get you that extra experience that will give you that leg up. And so I'm just a big fan of sort of putting your hand up and kind of going for it.

    


    Camilla Love

    Yes, indeed. So either asking for help or asking for advice, or I always say, so my version of that is ask the next question. So can I have a coffee? Can I have a pay rise? Do you mind if I have your job? That sort of thing? That's my version of that.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah. Well, people actually love to help. It feels really scary to ask. Sometimes people love to help and they just need to know how to help. And I literally can't think of a single time that I've asked for help. And the answer has been no. And even if the answer was no, would have been a really apologetic no. But how about you try this? And I'm so sorry. In this instance, because of X, Y, and Z, and you still end up getting there in a slightly more roundabout way. But if you don't ask, well, that's a no before you started.

    


    Camilla Love

    Can I tell you a funny story?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Sure.

    


    Camilla Love

    So I was looking for a mentor. This is a while ago, and one of the guys I worked with who I respect highly said to me, think about the most senior female in finance industry and just going up and ask her. And at that time it was Gail Kelly who was the Westpac CEO. So there I was, green eyes and bushy tails going, yeah, I'm just going to ask God College be my mentor. And I got back and no, can I tell you a funny story? Two years later, I went and did my MBA, and there I was sitting next to this person from Westpac, and I explained who I was. And she's like, You're Camilla love. What are you talking about? She goes, did you write to Gail Kelly to ask her to be a member? Yeah, that was ages ago. She goes, that was disgust at a meeting. And I'm like, Holy Moly. Serious. Anyway, that's a pretty funny story. So I did get a note, but I totally understand why.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Maybe I've never been ambitious enough to get to know. I'm so not surprised that you were there. I love that.

    


    Camilla Love

    Well, if you don't ask, you don't.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    You don't get that's right. Absolutely, indeed.

    


    Camilla Love

    Anyway, so let's move tact a little bit. And I'm always interested in our guest point of view on what the trends that they are seeing in the financial services industry right now. And that could be anything but particularly from your view, what's out there that people who are looking at joining the industry or who are recent entrants in the industry should look out for?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I think retirement is a big trend and that's we already talked about ageing demographics. The system is maturing. So we're finally seeing more and more waves of members retiring with quite decent superannuation balances and where that's quite a sizable asset for them in terms of their retirement. So it's getting greater importance placed on it from all avenues members, government regulators, and also choice is here to stay. And again, that's another very purposeful policy setting from the government's perspective. They want more members engaging with the system and making more choice to help competitive pressures ensure that that trend towards performance orientated cultures where that whole system, as efficient as can be, is maintained. And so I think that's one of the reasons why I'm so confident that personalisation is here to stay in the way of the future for super, because choice will push us there eventually anyway. And responsible ownership is another really big trend where you start to see that sort of positive virtuous cycle of capital coming into play, where we're aggregating up the wealth of millions of members into funds which have become really desensitised to the figures that I talk about these days.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    My fund has over 150,000,000,000 in assets under management, but we're managing on behalf of our members, and we're expecting to sort of double in the years to come in terms of that size. And so it's a really silly amount of money. And that means that we need to really take seriously the responsibility that comes with investing those assets and make sure that we understand all aspects of how that money is being used. And governance, environmental, social, thinking about societal impacts because the very long term horizon of our members. What's the point of retiring with all this money if you don't really have a planet to retire on, for example? And we have to think about all of the risks. And so increasingly, climate change is part of that opera is pushing funds, and members are pushing funds to think more and more about how we're managing for that and making sure that we're factoring in the risks of investing in coal because of stranded assets and things like that. Property is a long term asset class, and for years they've been leading the investment field in terms of green practises because it makes sense when you're investing in those type of time Horizons.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    And so that's another trend, I think that's here to stay. Yeah.

    


    Camilla Love

    And that's particularly poignant given that we've just had the week that's gone. We talk about sustainability a lot on this podcast, and it's nice to see the importance of the use of capital and putting it in the right places to sustain a better planet. And we've talked about it a lot in the episode. But it's also quite nice to think that the fact that going on the days that superannuation as an industry was like what I would deem as sleepy, I like the fact that it's now at the forefront and that people should really be thinking about that as a path in their career, not just something that goes off in your paycheck every month. I think that's great. So I asked this question to all of my guests, which is, what is the best career advice that you've ever been given? And why did it mean the most to you?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I had a moment where I was really calling out for perhaps not believing in myself enough and maybe not really having sufficient ambition in the way I thought about my career and what I was trying to achieve and how I was conducting myself in a professional sort of setting and just that idea that I have your sights on the next goal and dress for that success. And maybe that's sort of less applicable today after the realities are locked down. And certainly dress codes have become more casual and we've got much more ability to have our whole selves with us in the office now. But I think it's a mindset that's really important because if you don't believe you can get there, then why would anyone else? And sort of having that just consumption in the way that you're working, that you will get there really does actually make a difference. It certainly did for me, much to my surprise. And actually I was almost annoyed that it did because I was really annoyed by the advice at the time. If I'm honest, sometimes you don't like getting called out. Yeah, that's right. You didn't want to believe it, but it was really true.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    It had a really big impact, that mental shift. And I think how we visualise ourselves and the things that we say to ourselves and the self talk that comes with that can be a really powerful force for good or a real roadblock. So that's probably the most fundamental thing, especially because of my imposter syndrome. I think it was really important for me to hear that from someone really directly.

    


    Camilla Love

    And it's good to note that imposter syndrome happens to everyone at lots of points in their career. You're not alone in this. If you're out there listening to it, everybody whether I can't sit on this panel, why would anyone be able to listen to me? Why am I even writing this strategy paper? Because what are my ideas mean? Yeah, it comes from everywhere, and I'm glad that person gave you that advice, Jack.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I know, right? It was really good advice. Hard to hear, but it was really good advice. And I think the best advice is hard to hear, and you have to be really open to that, and you have to seek it out, and you have to kind of be willing to really embrace those gems and seek feedback all the time, just normalise that process. That's the beauty of learning, right? You're not trying to be perfect. You're just trying to be better than you were.

    


    Camilla Love

    Such great advice. Maybe you could have been that psychologist.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Maybe a coach, maybe talking versus listening thing.

    


    Camilla Love

    Sure. Okay. At the end of every episode, we do this quick fire round. Have you listened to any of our episodes?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Do you know what this is? Yeah, I'm ready. Hit me with it.

    


    Camilla Love

    Okay. If you could be any animal, what would it be? And why for sure?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    A Penguin? Because I really love Penguins and I really like the idea of sliding around on my belly on the ice. It looks really fun. Although I have to say, with climate change, melting ice caps and also just how hard Penguin life is, I'm not sure that it's a really sensible thing to want to be kind of fun. It does look fun, right? I want to do that all day. Yes, exactly. Dance around, slide.

    


    Camilla Love

    And so I went to the Zoo with Sabrina on the weekend and we get some Penguin. But no Penguins. They're not good. Who do you admire the most?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I know these questions are usually talking about the famous people, the Balmers of the world, but I actually source my inspiration locally. I'm a real people person. I love my friends and family. I pick out pieces I admire from the people I know best. So I admire my husband's endless calm and consideration of others. I wish I was a calmer person. I am as a result of him, but I'm nothing on his scale. You would be one of the people in my life that I gave my camera. I know that sounds corny, but I just love your energy and commitment to making a difference and somehow managed to stay organised through all of that, which I never achieved.

    


    Camilla Love

    It's organised chaos.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Organised chaos is better than just straight chaos, which is probably more true for my reality.

    


    Camilla Love

    If you could invite anyone to dinner, alive or dead, who would it be and why?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Just at the moment post lock down. One of my oldest, very close friends is going through breast cancer at the moment and I haven't been able to be there. She's down in Canberra. We've been locked down, so if I could have anyone to dinner, it would definitely be her, so I could give her a big hug in person and see how she's really doing.

    


    Camilla Love

    That's beautiful.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    But she's doing great.

    


    Camilla Love

    Well, cross fingers. My favourite book is.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Oh, I have always been a sucker for period dramas and I just love Pride and Prejudice. I always have. I must have read it a million times. And I really like Mr Darcy. Yeah. I don't know why we love Mr Darcy, but everyone does. I'm not going to go internally on that, but I just really like the sort of strong characters that female characters at Jane Austen wrote into books in a time when it was very difficult to be strong female and just, I don't know, the romance of the period combined with that. I've always loved it.

    


    Camilla Love

    So if you came back in another time, you'd come back in Jane Austin time, then?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Only if I could be one of her book characters, maybe. I'm not sure that it was a great time for women generally.

    


    Camilla Love

    Not at all.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I'm not sure. Maybe the future would be more interesting to find out about. See if I crack the retirement code.

    


    Camilla Love

    Yeah, we'll crack that one first and then we'll crack the time travel one.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah.

    


    Camilla Love

    Summer, winter. Autumn or spring?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Winter. Hand down. I love skiing. Oh, my God. Just miss it so much right now.

    


    Camilla Love

    One day we'll get to do it.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    One day we still haven't have we? Cannot believe this year.

    


    Camilla Love

    But we were locked down.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I mean, we've tried several times. It's going to happen. It's going to happen.

    


    Camilla Love

    Okay. Next year.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Next year. Let's do it. Logged in.

    


    Camilla Love

    Tell me something that no one else knows about you.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    No one else. Oh, my God. That doesn't exist. I don't think I'm such an open book. Everyone knows everything about me. I mean, things that would surprise people today would be from my distant past. I was a springboard diver. Did you know? Were you? I did the double back pike thing. Yeah. I could do, like, the inward hike, one and a half of the three metre and things like that. I could dive off the five minute. I got a silver medal at the Australian Inter Schools Championships. Really? Well, no, not really. I grew up in Canberra, so opportunities are limited. Maybe if I grow up in Brisbane.

    


    Camilla Love

    So next time I want to see one of these.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah, well, a little bit rusty, but we can always try.

    


    Camilla Love

    There's always a moment. My hidden talent is.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    My hidden talent is talking my son out of a tantrum. I'm the only one who can do it. They are really like, he's one determined little lad and those tantrums are epic. And he's so funny, especially through locked eyes. So funny. And he'd be like, mom, the tantrums are back. Help me. It's so funny. And I've always managed to crack the code.

    


    Camilla Love

    Eventually. Maybe you can come to my place.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Sure. I charge by the hour.

    


    Camilla Love

    Free for friends, right?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Yeah. Maybe my biggest investment mistake was to tell you what the worst investment I made recently was through lockdown. I invested in a trampoline for our backyard, for my kindergarten son. Vain hope that it would give him something to do. And all of those hours we were in work meetings and couldn't pay him attention. He was trying to, I don't know, entertain himself. But unfortunately, the Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. He's far too extrovert. And he refuses to jump on the damn thing without someone else with him. And he hardly ever used it as a result. It was the worst.

    


    Camilla Love

    So it doesn't count if no one's watching.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    No. Why would I play with toys without people to play with? And I'm like, I hear you, mate. It's really hard to. It's really hard to complain when that's your personality coming out back at you. My favourite song is probably anything from Julia and Angerstone. I love them. And maybe Bella in particular. That was my wedding song.

    


    Camilla Love

    It's really special for me. That's so nice. The last question is complete this sentence.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    A career in finance is never boring, sometimes challenging, but an amazing opportunity to make a difference.

    


    Camilla Love

    Jacki such a great way to end. And I loved our chat. I Think We've Given, as Always, Just Some Surprising. I Didn't Realise That It Was Like A Pact With Your Mates Which Made You Do Psychology Because That's What I Really Wanted To Do. And Then Into Finance. I Love The Fact That Your Worst Investment Decision Was Buying A Kid In Trampoline.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Really?

    


    Camilla Love

    And It's Great To See That Super, Which Has Moved Forward And Trying To Reach For Better Retirement Outcomes For All Members And Personalising Them Is Really A Goal And An Achievable Goal, Which I Think Is Super Exciting. So Once You Get There, You Let Me Know.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    I Will. Absolutely. And For Everyone Out There, Pay Attention Early To Your Super. For Every Dollar You Invest In Your 20s, It Will Grown To At Least Around $4 by The Time You retire. It's An Amazing Way To Get Ahead In Life And Also Give You That Extra Freedom And Flexibility To Have Time Out Of The workforce later For Whatever Reason You Might choose And Still Have A Great Retirement Outcome. So Engage Early, make The Most Of It, and Don't Succumb To that. Oh, It's My Future Self Problem Kind Of Thing That We Tend To Do As Humans.

    


    Camilla Love

    That Future Self Comes Around Too Fast, huh?

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Oh, My God. It Has For Me.

    


    Camilla Love

    Wendy. So Jack, it Was Really Great To Chat and thank You For Being Funny And Entertaining As Usual. And I'm Just Really Glad That You Can Help Inspire The New Generation Of Talent Coming Into The Industry And What We're Trying To Do Here At Shares Not Shoes. So thank You For Being Open And Honest And Being Just Generally Jacki Ellis.

    


    Jacki Ellis

    Really thank You So Much For Having Me. It's Been A Blast As Always. And For Anyone Still On The Fence, Do It, just Do It. It's The Best.

    


    Camilla Love

    Just Do It. Exactly. So for More Information About Our Guests On Shares, Not Shoes And Further Episodes, head to SharesnotShoes.com. And for more information On F three Future Females In Finance, Head To F Three.com Au. As Always, I Look Forward To You Joining US Next Episode Where We Will Continue To Interview Some Fabulous People Just Like Jacki And To Give You The Inside Scoop On Careers In Finance. Bye. For now.

    


    Camilla Love

    You Know The Information That Is In This Podcast. We Always Talk About Finance In This Podcast. But It's Not Financial Advice. It's Actually Really Careers Advice. If You Really Want Financial Advice, I Recommend That You Speak To A Financial Planner Or A broker And Work Out Your Own Personal Circumstances With that. But this Is All About Career's Advice And How It's Finance Would Be A Fabulous Career For you.