To kick off the first episode of season 6, we have the amazing Karen Jorritsma, Managing Director - Head of Equities, Australia at RBC Capital Markets who discusses how she got her first role by calling the firm and asking if they would hire her and why she chose a career in finance.
She also gives her thoughts on how AI will impact those currently working in finance.
An awesome episode that is not to miss! 👠
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Karen
He was like 28 years old and driving a Ferrari. And I thought, you know what? He made it sound so fun and so interesting. And I thought to be 28, driving a Ferrari. Okay, cool. That sounds like a good job.
Camilla
Welcome, everyone. Back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes an Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host Camilla Love, founder of F3 Future Females in Finance shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you, I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories. We'll be open and honest and will inspire you.
Camilla
So let's go!
Camilla
Today we are delving into sell side equities and we're going to do it with none other than the best at it. Nothing better than starting with the bar. Really, really high, huh? Today's guest has over 20 years of sell side experience and is always in the media being quoted on things such as oil prices, tech stocks, interest rates, company specific events, you name it. She has an opinion on it. She's one of the smiliest people I know. Her current role is managing director head of Equities Australia at RBC capital. We are very lucky to have her along on today's episode of Shares Not Shoes. Welcome, Karen Jorritsma.
Karen
Thank you Camilla, so great to be here. Very excited to be talking to you.
Camilla
I am so keen to delve into your story. And we're doing a season on equities, and we're doing everything from buy side to sell side to global to domestic to to everything, you name it. We're covering it this season and I am super excited to have you because you are one of the top females and longest running females, I dare say in the Sellside equities in Australia. So we're super excited that we've, you know, been able to nab you on today's episode. So let's start at the beginning. How would you describe your day to day role and tell us all why you love it.
Karen
These are this is a great question. So, you know, I'll start at the very beginning of why I love it. I think the market is something that you absolutely have to love to be here because it's a lot. I mean, the market, the equity markets as a whole are more than just a job. I always say it's a lifestyle. Whenever I interview someone, I say it's true. It's a it's a lifestyle. Because because of the nature of our job, it changes so much every day. And there's so much going on that if you don't enjoy being in a very dynamic, changing environment, this will be a very punishing job. So I think, you know, it always has to. I always look for people who say, you know, it's in your heart. I think the equity markets and and you know it's in your. Yeah. And you know this and you know it's in your heart too, because you and I both watched when people retire or leave the industry, they never quite leave.
Camilla
No. No one.
Camilla
Ever. No one ever. Does they still dabble in it. They always have an opinion on stuff. They always come back into your circle and they've, you know, what do you think about this? And what do you think about that? Yeah. It is I love it and I'm with you in that. One of the reasons why I love being in finance is every day is not the same, because the fact that markets take so much information in every second of every day is not the same.
Karen
Absolutely. And a when you come to work, you never know what's going to happen. You kind of look at your diary and think that's what you're doing, but invariably that.
Camilla
You're free all day and then.
Karen
No, you never are. And then you know what I, what I think is the great thing, if you have, you know, that intellectual curiosity, this is the most amazing career, which on the crux of it, you don't think about that because, you know, people think it's maths and all these other type things. But the reality of our business is it's about being intellectually curious because you've got to want to learn about so much. And I think the other thing which keeps people addicted is you never stop learning. So there's always something to say and think about.
Camilla
Absolutely. So how do you prick your curiosity? Because, you know, you have to be a, you know, a a generalist and a specialist at the same time. You need to know about mining and tech. You need to know about interest rates, and you need to know about supply chains. You need to know about retail and everything, everything in between. How do you how do you make sure that you know a little about enough to ask the right questions to the people who sit across the table from you?
Karen
Yeah. Well, you know what? That's one of the great questions to a broker, because I think within a three minute conversation, all the things you just put there often are discussed within a very small window. So and your mind has to be able to switch between those as well in that time. So do you know what it is? It is I always say to the young guys who work for me that you're doing the most all of the time, and, and that really means I'm reading everything. I'm watching everything I can. You know, there's never a spare time that I just sort of do nothing. I'm watching CNBC at 4:00 in the morning, then I'm reading things in the paper. I'm, you know, when you get the opportunity to sit with a CEO, you're really listening to what that CEO says so that you're feeding yourself so much data at all times. You know, we're like those computers. They're feeding the AI machine learning machines. So yeah, hoping something comes out.
Camilla
So tell me, tell me about like, you get up in the morning, you do watch NBC, NBC at 4 a.m., like, do you? What do you do? Do you go for a run? Do you read whatever's happened in the US overnight? How? What do you do?
Karen
Yeah. Look, this is going to sound like the most cliched thing I was just reading about in the New York Times. The Wall Street's obsessed with working out, and I'm no different. So I get up to. Yeah, yeah, I think I think, you know, I think we are, because it's the only thing that you can control in your day. So it's a stress.
Camilla
Relief for me. Stress relief. It's out. That's the you know, I'd start the day well and that's how it starts.
Camilla
Yeah. Don't you think like you have to start how you mean to go on. So I start, like you said, sort of early for for 20 ish and then go to the gym. I'm in the gym with my trainer at five. And as you probably understand, I have someone I have to meet at five so I don't get out of it.
Camilla
Otherwise they keep you fully accountable.
Camilla
Yeah, and I'm paying for it anyway. So I figured, oh God.
Camilla
In more ways than one.
Karen
Yeah, you're paying in all the way. So, you know, you're in the gym at five. Which is great though, because it kind of really, you know, fires you up and and this, you know, as you know, the nature of this job is it's an early start. We're in the office by seven at the latest. Um, so you kind of got, you got to get yourself together because of course, by the time you get in, you've got to have watched the overnight market. You need to know what happened in New York and in London. You can't come into the office without any idea because Australia really depends very heavily on that. So, yeah, a lot of my day is very, very heavily front loaded with, you know, exercising, understanding what's going on, getting to work and then getting on the screens to see, you know, where we're going to be positioned for the day. So a lot of activity happens before the average person gets to the office.
Camilla
I think, oh my.
Camilla
Gosh, that is so true. It's like you've run a marathon before like 9 a.m. I know.
Karen
Well, you know, you watch people go get off the train at 9 a.m. and I think, oh my God, it's almost luncheon. Exactly. So why is everyone so late for work today?
Camilla
So, so true. And then. So what do you do in the afternoons? Do you do you relook at your models? Do you positioning your whether you're going to be you know, what's happened versus whether it's, you know, your analysts come to you and say, hey, I'm thinking about moving this from a buy to a hold to a sell. Do you? You're out talking to the buy side and, you know, company director, tell me what you do in the afternoon, because obviously you get a lot done in the morning. But the afternoon piece is also critically important, too.
Karen
Yeah, yeah. Look. Absolutely. And I will say in the morning, we do have our morning meeting where the analysts pitch to us their ideas. So they're basically running through, you know, are we buying this stock. Are we selling this. This is what we're you know, this is our broking for the day. So once we've got in the morning is crucial for that part. Sort of go in with what we intend to talk about in the market today. And then, you know, the rest of the sort of late morning into the afternoon spent discussing that with the buyer side, telling them why we think BHP is a buyer or seller and what stocks they should be focused on, where we think the oil price is going and, you know, all those types of things. Um, often because it is a very relationship heavy job, you know, you're often catching up with people in person. You might be going to a lunch often in the afternoons you'll spend some time catching up with the corporates.
Karen
So the really great part of my job, which I absolutely love, is, is catching up with corporate Australia and how they're seeing their businesses. So there's a lot of that type of activity that happens in the afternoon. And yeah, meetings. I mean, in my role, there's a lot of meetings I could only imagine.
Camilla
And tell me about, you know, in those meetings, you need to get as much information out of these corporates as possible to add value to your clients on the buy side. Right. How? You know, I'm always interested in how can you tell the BS from the truth? How can you how do you read body language and how do you do the yeah, even the, the um, so we talk a lot, you know, in our industry about the hard skills, about the maths and the modelling and all that sort of stuff. But really, I think it's the soft skills that can change the dial in the way that you interpret everything. What are your thoughts?
Karen
Camilla I absolutely agree. And I actually think that's what I have a view that women are really great at this job because of exactly as you're pointing out, some of the soft skills, because the maths and all of that stuff is great. But the reality is when you get into this industry, I remember my, you know, education. I went to university like everyone does and does commerce and economics like everyone does. And I realised very quickly in the first six months of this job that absolutely served me no good whatsoever. And, you know, I thought, hang on, you know, I know everything. I went to university and did all this stuff and. Yeah, well, that's that's great. But what you actually learn is on the job. And, um, you know, I think when you're sitting in front of a management team, you're definitely watching what they're not saying and what they don't want to answer. And I mean, look, the reality is there's a lot of listing.
Karen
ASX listing rules. You have to, you know, disclose things and be very transparent in corporate Australia. So I find the vast majority of them play by the rules very closely. But you can certainly tell there's some of those around the edges. You know, I always look at I look at the. Yeah. And you know, that's what makes it interesting because of course, like you said, the our job is to add value. We don't just repeat what companies say. So I know in the old days we used to look at the watch and the shoes that they were sort of rolling around in. And sometimes the, watch seemed excessive for the role they had. And all those types of like, are they too flashy? And, you know, you definitely look at the demeanour. I think you can tell a lot from the demeanour of of a CEO or CFO if they look positive or if they're sort of slumped in their chair and look exhausted, like, you know, they've spent all night trying to make things look better than they are.
Karen
So I think, yeah, I think the soft skills are massively important in this business and in all ways. Even when you're talking to your clients, as in the buyer side, you know, you're looking for the soft skills and listening, like actually hearing what they're saying to you is a massive skill in itself, to be honest.
Camilla
You know, it's the interpretation of it. You know, all the information, all the synthesis of the information that you get and being able to put it into your models and describe it to your clients and really add that value. I mean, that is the core reason why the sell side exists.
Karen
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Camilla
So tell me, and I'm going to go back to basics here on this on this question. Tell me what the difference between sell side and buy side is. And why is Cellsite important part of the financial ecosystem, and even maybe touch on how the sell side has changed over your career.
Karen
Okay. So the sell side versus the buy side. The buy side, other investors buying stocks. So they're the ones who are, um, you know, investing the superannuation funds. They're buying the assets, whether they be shares or, or ETFs or whatever, the asset class they're buying and investing for their for their client base, which is, you know, in my world, that's the institutional investor they're buying for a super fund or, you know, high net worth individuals on the sell side. We're over here, you know, basically selling you ideas and products and equities or fixed income or rates. So we have a suite of products that we're selling to the other side, which is the institutional investor side. So that's you know, the very core of it is we're providing the products. And then the investor group is buying what you know, whether it be equities or fixed or rates, whatever it may be. Mhm.
Camilla
So then why it's why is it so important to the financial ecosystem the sell side.
Karen
Well I'd like to think we add values. So of course you do. Look I think you know it's important for many fronts and some of it is around providing capital. So I think you know I work in a global investment bank here at RBC. And we have a big balance sheet both in Australia and certainly globally. And you know, we provide capital to corporates. We can provide capital and lending to institutional investors. So we absolutely provide like the, you know, the very core of what is corporate finance. I think essentially, um, and beyond that, though, of course the other parts of it is you've got a whole bunch of specialists in all these fields globally. So if you're, say, talking to me, I can tap into my global network. And if you're my client, I can provide you some views direct from the New York trading floor on, you know what they're saying about tech stocks right now. And so there's an element of that, that if you were an investor, if you were running your own firm, it would be very expensive for you to have that kind of reach.
Karen
So you do you do sort of garner value from the advisory part of our role as well, which is me telling you what's going on in the US and London and everywhere else. We've got an office as well as the actual, you know, product suite that we do offer. So there's, you know, two parts to what? Well, there's multiple parts, but they're sort of very basic parts of what an equity business would provide you.
Camilla
And I think about it as, um, you know, lots of people do lots of research into every company and every, you know, different facets of the financial ecosystem. But what I think, like one of the core attributes of the sell side is they are so focused in on uncovering corporate information that may not be even available or seen by the rest of the market. And therefore you can provide such insights into companies, into segments of the market that others might not be able to. As you say, have access to have the money or resources to provide to get into whatever it is, but it's just that insight that you can provide.
Karen
Yeah. And I think that's where the advantage of having these big global investment bankers offers that scale that we can feed into, you know, whoever, whoever the client is. And I guess the other important part is the trading element is the broker. We pay the licence into the stock exchange and we do the physical. The you know, it's now all on computers, but we do the actual trading. So if you are running an institutional, um, book, you do need to trade stocks. And the broker provides that connectivity into the exchange, which is all heavily regulated and licenced. So that's, you know, a pretty crucial part of the process.
Camilla
And there's money in execution. Right. So it is really you know, it's it's really important.
Karen
Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, and this is what any sales trader who will tell you because that's their daily job. But the sales trader's skill is very crucial to this process. Because as much as buying and selling stock sounds pretty basic when you say it like that, the reality is, as you know, you want to get at the right very technical. Yeah, well, that's what they tell me anyway. Camilla. But that's.
Camilla
But.
Karen
That's you know, you want to get it at the right price. You want to make sure you're not changing like you can. If you go too hard into the market, you can really skew the share price by, you know, putting in big numbers and then, you know, you're buying stuff 7% ahead of where it needs to be. I think the element, the other part of that too, is you may want the average to be over a certain period of time. So that's where the, you know, the skill comes down. And then of course, the other part is if you need sort of large liquidity in a particular stock, you may need a sales strategy to step in the middle. And they know that they're another trader. Yeah. Block trader. So they know where to seek the liquidity for you. So there's all kinds of parts of the trading function offers that I think is a huge part of the, you know, the basis of what we do here.
Camilla
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And, you know, particularly in the small cap space, those block trade, you know, having access to, you know, the capital on the other side and knowing where capital can be reached if you do want to buy or sell. Um, yes. You know, blocks. It is really it's so valuable, really valuable. And how has it changed over your career?
Karen
Look, I think, you know, I started my career straight out of university, and it's been 24 years, and it's changed pretty materially, I think, you know, back in the day. And if anyone wants a history lesson, I'm happy to give it to them any time. But but and I hate that saying back in the day because the young guys just rolled their eyes and go, oh my God. And it makes you.
Camilla
Feel like you're your grandma, right? When you really know what I know in the olden days, I know.
Camilla
I'm like, yes, we had computers and mobile phones. Yes, that was Yeah, that was a thing. Um, but I think, you know, we I in my era, when I started as an analyst, I was a research analyst. And, you know, we were still being paid by the investment banks and the investment bankers, and we were doing kind of what they wanted as effectively the lack of compliance and regulation did, you know, was a real thing back then. So since then it's changed materially from a compliance and regulatory perspective. There's, you know, more Chinese walls between the public and private side. Um, you know, there's more um, you have to more independence, I think, between research and sales and trading. So there's a whole bunch of rules that came in to try and make the playground much fairer. I think the other side of it, too, is, you know, what the what? Because of computers and technology, basically execution has been massively aided by what technology provides from that perspective too.
Karen
So that's been the key change is probably technology. And, you know, I suspect that AI is going to be the next generation and the next derivative of where I think that's a whole thing on both the buy and the sell side that, you know, we're currently in the early days, not early days, but we're addressing pretty quickly here as well.
Camilla
Do you have a prediction on that for ten years, 20 years down the track when maybe it is the olden days?
Karen
Yeah, I know how scary for all of us. Yeah. I think, you know, we can see today already that AI is really assisting people in taking vast amounts of information and deciphering it very quickly. Yeah. So I think from a research perspective, obviously that's very helpful when like you said earlier, when you're going through annual reports for the past 15 years, if you have AI, you can do that in probably a minute and have even. Yeah, less. Yeah. And have a very, you know, sensible kind of piece of paper that tells you what you really need to know. So, um, I think all that stuff changes it. I think on the trading front, I and we're already doing that here at RBC, the, the outcomes that I can give you will in fact be better than human because again, you can take a huge amounts of information and synthesise it super, super quickly within seconds and do things that humans can't. Human brains just can't do. So I think, you know, we are about to see that on both sides of the sell side.
Karen
And I would sort of really I'm looking at to what happens to the buyer side because I think, you know, the big hedge funds will be using AI as well. I mean, they've already they've already been using it. And we've seen that globally in the shift that quant funds have as well. So it's going to change the nature of how the market trades. So I think there's a lot coming our way from AI.
Camilla
Yeah absolutely. And to tell you the truth I actually can't wait. Like for me, you know, you go I go back to that word that you used earlier. Curiosity like that piece is super interesting for me in the AI and ML space because it can be a full game changer, but on top. But then I think to myself, well, you know, where does fundamental investing go from here based on that? Do you Do you know you use it to synthesise that information really fast. But then there's this human lens that still sits over the top of it. What's your view there?
Karen
Yeah, I think so. And well, that's what we hope, don't we, Camilla? That the humans are still needed. Otherwise, you and I, you and I will be having a very different conversation in time, I think. I mean, that like, that's what I think we all hope really, for for ourselves and for our jobs and maybe humanity if we want to get that deep. But I think, yeah, I mean, look, I think there's always going to be an element of trust. And certainly, as you know, in this business, trust is a huge factor. And people have trust in what people tell them and, and help make them money and what they say. So I suspect that's always going to be there, because computers really can't tell you if you can trust a CEO. The computer can't tell me if they can trust me or trust another client. So I think, you know, let's hope for our sakes, all our sakes and humankind that that that doesn't get taken over completely.
Karen
Otherwise. It's just it's computer games, isn't it? Otherwise it.
Camilla
Is. It's very Terminator two, right? Which we don't want. No. Exactly.
Karen
In all ways. So yeah. Let's, let's, let's hope we use it as our, um, our co-pilot, as they like to say. Not our not our ruler.
Camilla
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm going to step back a little bit. Tell me about how and why you got into finance. And did you, did you know like were at uni. Do you just go, yeah, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. And therefore I popped out on the on, you know, as a research analyst or did you just fall into it by, by mistake?
Camilla
No, I was it was really funny. This actually I kind of always just decided and it's how I pretty much do everything. I just made a decision when I was 15, and I have no idea why I had no I had no right to decide what I decided because I was a 15 year old schoolgirl in Canberra at an all girls school. I'd never met a stockbroker in my life. To be really honest, my parents weren't in finance. Or did you even know?
Camilla
How did you even know?
Camilla
Well, I was it was school holidays and as my mother was a working mum, so she was always, you know, just like look after yourselves, which is totally fine. I was happy to do it. I went and borrowed a book off my neighbour, and the book was called Liar's Poker by Michael Lewis. And I read the entire book in, I think, a day because I could not, you know, one of those books. And I can't say I was a voracious reader, but, you know, when you pick up a book, you're like, oh, okay. I thought I'd read a little bit, but now I'm going to keep on going. Um, I think I read the whole book in like a day, and I actually never gave the book back because I was so obsessed with it. I said, that's it. Now it's mine. Um, but yeah, Liar's poker. So liar's poker, if you haven't read it, I'm telling. Have you read it, Camilla?
Camilla
No. Actually, no. And I it's one of. I'm sending you a copy. Yeah, you'll have to. You'll have to. And, you know, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan. So, um, but I just, you know, Michael Lewis is just amazing. And I've read a lot, a lot of his books, so, um, but my book. So I want to go back to your story, but my book of the same name is Red notice. Right. So I'm just. I'm like that. Oh, so that's one for you. You know, hedge funds in Russia, you know, Bill Browder, all that sort of stuff. It was like just I read it in a day. Read it in a day. It was amazing. Amazing.
Camilla
Okay, well, I'm definitely buying that because if you've read it in a day, I need to go and get it. So. Yeah.
Camilla
Well, we can swap books.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah, we will, because I'm always looking for, you know, something when I have a holiday to read. But, um, so I read. Look, I read that book, and then in the book, if you go and read it, you'll see he's a bond trader at Salomon Smith Barney in, in the 90s. And he was, like, 28 years old and driving a Ferrari. And I thought, you know what? He made it sound so fun and so interesting. And I thought to be 28, driving a Ferrari. Okay, cool. That sounds like a good job.
Camilla
Gone are those days, though. I would dare say I.
Camilla
Know, I know, I know, I mean to be a bond trader. In the 90s, we'd all be driving Ferraris, but. Oh well. But let's be real. As a woman, I wouldn't have got a job. Probably as a bond trader. Um, okay. There's that, there's that in the 90s?
Camilla
Not now, not now. No, not everyone's desperate for them on this. In this industry, everyone is desperate. Anyway, keep going.
Camilla
On this show because.
Camilla
I want to know how you got from Liar's Poker into into finance.
Camilla
Well that basically so that basically decided that was it. I was like, okay, I'm going to do that. And I wrote down Salomon Smith Barney and that was it. And so I went off to, you know, do university and whatever. Um, and then I left uni and of course, everyone's off applying for jobs at KPMG, EY. And I was like, no chance. I'm never doing that. I think I went to one interview at PwC and thought, mm, definitely can't.
Camilla
Be an auditor. It's just not my thing.
Camilla
No, and I can't I've got to say, Camilla, I don't think they thought I was the natural auditor because I, you know, when you leave an interview and you're like I don't think that one, that one. No, no, no.
Camilla
My, my careers advisor at school told me to be an accountant, and I just I'm just not an accountant.
Camilla
Do you know what my careers advisor told me to be is they print out this sheet with all these things on And I said, I don't know why you're a teacher. You've done none of these things. Why would I do any of those? And we never had another meeting. So but no disrespect to teachers. My sister is a principal and an excellent one. So, um. So, look, I basically what happened, we got to the year where everyone got went off and got these jobs at these big firms. I decided I was just going to go and work at Solomon's, like the book. I rang them, asked for a job.
Camilla
That was it.
Camilla
Which that well, they kind of thought it was pretty funny and.
Camilla
Um, seriously.
Camilla
But I got an interview. I got an interview, so I went I drove myself up in my suit that I bought from Portmans and drove up from Canberra to Sydney for my interview at this firm. And I had absolutely, let me be honest, no idea what I was about to do or say. And, you know, had this meeting and the girl basically said, well, we've got no jobs really for you, but you seem quite fun. And I said, don't worry, just call me back when you find me a job. And that's so.
Camilla
Ballsy. It's great.
Camilla
Six weeks. Well, six weeks later, they rang me back and offered me, you know, like a very entry level job. And it was in research as someone's assistant. And I was of the view that I will, you know, make sandwiches, do whatever photocopying. I just didn't care. And so they offered me that job and I, you know, showed up with a massively good attitude. And that was it. And I've got to say, from the minute I got in, I loved it. And I took every opportunity. I said yes to everything and just, just, you know, I knew that I'd found my people. Yeah.
Camilla
And those people like, highly intelligent, you know, inquisitive, curious, you know, people who are happy to take risks as part of their career, all that sort of stuff. Like who, who are your people and where, like, why did you find them in here?
Camilla
Yeah. Well, there's a lot I think you know exactly that. Like, I showed up and there was a bunch of people similar age to me, and what I liked is they were real go getters, and that was something I think about myself. I was always someone who was happy to work very hard, but very prepared to, you know, because I really wanted to, you know, get ahead and achieve things and kind of win. Like I like winning. So I recognised pretty quickly that those people were that. But my God, they worked. I think I'd never worked in another working environment. I worked as a receptionist at a gym in Canberra while I was at university, so I hadn't, you know, I didn't have great experience in the workplace. But, you know, they they worked big hours and they still do in research. You know, we used to work every weekend, and I think I worked every night of my 20s till sort of midnight. It's a big job.
Camilla
But the learning curve was huge. And you love it. And you know, when you look around and you really think, oh, these people are people I want to hang around with, and they make you better and they push you. And that's when that's when you know you're in the right spot.
Camilla
I totally, totally agree. Absolutely. So then. So then you worked at Salomons, right? Yes. Um, and then you and you stayed on the sell side the whole time. Have you ever been, you know, wanted to do anything else? Like, what would you do if you did something else?
Camilla
Yeah, I don't know, because I think I might have been born a broker That's what I think.
Camilla
So they're going to have to wheel you out. Is that what you're going to say in the coffin? You'll still be selling. Selling equities when you're 85. Well, you.
Camilla
Know, I hope we move on from there a bit. But yeah, I think, you know I definitely think and you'll know this yourself. But you sort of found your people. You're like I'm a broker versus a PM or running a fund. I think, you know, you definitely know my personality style is I really enjoy being around people, and I derive a lot of energy from being around other people. I like big enthusiasm, and certainly working for North American investment banks has always provided me the right type of backdrop for my career, because that's I fit perfectly into that mould. Um, so yeah, I just, you know, you just really love it. And I think that's how, you know, you're in where you want to be. And I'll be staying here, I guess. So.
Camilla
I love that I've.
Camilla
Never I've never I've never I've had some years off, you know, in my career, I've had a couple of breaks where, you know, for various reasons you've had I've had a year off or two years off, and at no point during that period did I just think about doing anything else, to be honest. And that's how you know, you really like it.
Camilla
I love that. Absolutely. You know, that fire is still in your gut that you need. There's unfinished business.
Camilla
Yeah. And I'm going to admit something which is so tragic here. And you should never admit this, but I'll tell you, when you're on holidays, you can't. You kind of miss it. You go, oh, I'm happy to go back to work. Like, I love my holidays. And I have great, you know, but, you know, you go on these great, amazing holidays and it's super fun and love to be there. But I'm always like, never dreading going back to work. I'm like, oh, what's going on in the market? I'll just sneak a sneak a look or a bit of CNBC where I can squeeze it in.
Camilla
You've still got to go and hit the ground running when you get back into the. You can't. It's not like you can miss whatever's happened in the last six weeks, right?
Camilla
Well there's that. And you also kind of like I wonder what's going on, like, you know, something being announced somewhere, or, you know, the US fed done something that made the market move. Like you, you just get a bit addicted to the news flow. I think you become a bit of a news junkie from that perspective and the pace of it. I think what I actually think it is the pace that you get addicted to, that constant being fed information, the constant, um, cadence we operate at. And you do miss it on holidays.
Camilla
Yeah. Um, but holidays are very good, we will admit.
Camilla
Oh, we love holidays. Don't worry. Holidays. Yeah. So Qantas.com starts my favourite.
Camilla
They know when you're there because you've clicked too many times. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.
Camilla
Oh, they know I'm all over it. Yeah.
Camilla
So, hey, I'm always interested in mistakes, right. So because that is the biggest learning point. So tell me about, you know, an area or even a call that you made where it's been a bit of a mistake. And what happened? What did you learn and what has made, you know, things different now? How do you look at things different now based on that.
Camilla
Look, I think it's a really good question and such a good topic to talk about because invariably when people talk about their careers, it's always about the good bits and the success. And I think that's not reality. And I and, you know, people also don't like talking about their failures because you can be embarrassed or whatever. And, you know, I think the more you can say, don't worry, it happens to me. People go, okay, that's okay. The great success, I think, in life, and the great skill is to just be able to fail and move past it. And that is something I had to learn big time, because as a bit of a perfectionist and someone who'd done very well at school, you kind of get used to doing well. And then when things don't go well, you know, you really need to teach yourself those skills to overcome that and be okay with it. Like settle it in your mind. So, Camilla, if I give you the list of calls that went poorly, we will be here for three hours.
Camilla
So but there's certainly I mean, I'll tell you the one that I love the most because it's had such a beautiful outcome. When I was a much younger broker, I was given a client to call, and this client was pretty stroppy and I know you know the client, so I won't name them, but, um. Okay, you can tell me later. Yeah. The client was, you know, very well regarded, very successful, a portfolio manager at a big fund. And I had to call this person and tell them stuff, of course, because that was my job as a sales person. So I did this. And every day she would say to me, so I'll tell you, it's a she. She would say, oh, why don't you tell me something I don't know? And you know, these kinds of comments back. And I thought, oh my gosh. So anyway, whatever, eventually we got to know each other a bit better. Um, and now we've become the best of friends, and it's because, you know, I kept on calling and we had that catalyst where we actually went out and did something together and thought, oh, we're actually very, very similar.
Camilla
And it's all turned out beautifully. But it's really funny because for a long time I thought, oh, I'm terrible at this. You know, I'm saying all these things. She tells me I'm terrible. And it really, you know, was something I had to move past in a lot of ways. But yeah, there's been lots of failure, there's no doubt, because the success just isn't linear. And as you know, in this business, it's full of alpha People and it's competitive and you're not going to get everything right. And there's calls. You know, today I run a decent sized business and there's calls that I make that I sometimes think, well, that's probably not turned out how I wanted it to turn out. And we'll we'll keep on moving.
Camilla
Is that what keeps you up at night? Is that like making the right calls or, you know, is it company specific things? What? What keeps you up at night?
Camilla
It's definitely a whole bunch of stuff. Um, I think definitely you always want to be doing the right thing by the client. So if you feel like you haven't done that, that's a that's always a problem. As far as, you know, being okay with things. I think I'm always really good at being honest. And that's I've kind of had a pretty big rule with myself about being authentic and honest as both a person in this industry and, and with the client base or the corporate. So I think as long as you do that, you feel like you've done the right thing by people because you've always, you know, told them the right story. Um, no, I got to admit this too. Not much actually keeps me up at night because I think you kind of. you have to learn to sleep firstly and secondly, you know, you put in a massive amount of effort during the day and do all the best you can. And I literally get to the end of the day and think, well, I've done the absolute best I can.
Camilla
I've kind of feel like I've sucked the life out of the day, and I've done as much as I can do today, and I have a pretty decent ability to go to sleep immediately because it's only a short space. Yeah, but I think we need that, don't we? Because otherwise really.
Camilla
Otherwise, as soon as my head hits the pillow, give me five less than five seconds and I'm out.
Camilla
Yeah, I'm the same, which I look good. Good for us, Camilla. Because, yeah, I think if I struggle because I go to bed pretty late, like, well, after midnight and get up pretty early. So yeah, if I'm, I don't really have I've decided I've rationalised. I don't really have time in my Night-Time sleeping to start spending it thinking so good.
Camilla
Good. Absolutely. But I, you know, and I, you know, and you've touched on it a few times about the importance of relationships. And we talk about it all the time. This is a people industry, right? And that being true, the truthful and honesty piece, being transparent and authentic is an absolute because people are buying you, right? You and your research and what you can offer. And that is such a good attribute to like to be able to have, like to be able to sell yourself just by being honest, truthful, authentic, transparent.
Camilla
Do you know, do you know? The other part of that too is I've had to do that to survive. And this is, you know, as you know, the big the big shift in our industry and finance has been the gender diversity or any kind of diversity, but specifically, you know, more females at the table, which people like yourself have worked very hard at. And I've spent a lot of time focusing on it. So I think I decided a long, long time ago that if I was going to survive, I actually had to be myself because I couldn't pretend to be one of the boys. Too much.
Camilla
Energy. Too much energy. Trying to be something else.
Camilla
Yeah. And I just couldn't pretend because I remember in my early 20s, I thought, if I have to pretend that I like to talk about the AFL every day, like this is going to be a disaster. So. So I thought so true. I have to just go with my own, like, kind of, you know, almost stay in your own lane and just be who I am and thought, well, I'm either going to make it as myself or I'm not. And if I don't, I don't. But I can't pretend I like drinking beer and talking about AFL because I like neither of those things. So. And do you know what?
Camilla
The industry is way better for you for doing that, right? Because, you know, we all love you for that exact reason. Like, as I said in the beginning, you are the smiliest, most bubbliest person I know. And I'm just I'm just pleased that you're out the front leading, you know, the sell side in this, in your capability as a female. I just love it. Love it.
Camilla
Oh thank you. Oh, that's nice to hear. But I think that's what you have to be like. And I'm happy and I'm genuinely happy to be here. Like, every day. I'm happy to get up and come to a great job. I feel super privileged to be in this industry because it's amazing like it is. It's one of the greats. Like I, you know, I'm sure everyone says that about their well, I hope they say it about their business, but we're lucky. Like this is a very great business. And that's why I hope for young women that they, you know, I say to them, you're going to work hard. Like this is not a business where you can escape hard work. And if you don't like that, it's probably not for you. And if you don't like being up in the morning, also definitely not for you. But if you if you if you're cool with both those things, you know, this is a great business as a woman.
Camilla
And I've always actually said to young women, it's kind of an advantage because, you know, maybe there have been less of us in the past and they remember your name. So for sure.
Camilla
Absolutely. Because it's not David and John and Andrew or Matt like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Camilla
And they're like, oh there's that noisy blonde one. We know her. So you know.
Camilla
And you've always got something to say and always have an opinion. I love that about you. Right. There's no you. It's not like you can rock up and not have a conversation because you have things to say.
Camilla
Well, you have to. But can I tell you, you know, that has got me in trouble. Oh.
Camilla
Totally. You know, I'm totally in there. Like, there's not a there's not a day that goes past that. I'm not pulling my my foot out of my mouth, which is, you know, part of the reason why I'm doing a podcast. Because I get to I get to do this all the time.
Camilla
Yeah. I think this might be perfect for you. Like, you get to kind of say what you like to say when you want to say it, which is the ultimate luxury, isn't it? Yeah.
Camilla
Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely, absolutely. So, hey, um, one of my last questions I ask everybody is about the most valuable piece of advice you've ever been given and why it resonated. Was it a was it a point in time? Was it a, you know, a thing that happened that made you learn like, or is it something that you've just taken to heart and just run with it?
Camilla
Look, there's probably two things. One is to my father was a, um, very calm Dutch man and he always said to me, just be cool. Like, just be cool. Just be cool.
Camilla
In all senses of the.
Camilla
Word. Yeah, yeah. And he like, whenever I was, you know, spinning my wheels or stressing out about something or whatever growing up, he'd like to just be cool. You'll be all right. Just be cool. Like a cucumber. Which sounds a bit old fashioned to say that. But, you know, sometimes I'd be infuriated by being told to be like that. But I always have tried to keep that in my mind. Because, you know, when you are calm and you do take a minute to stop and think, really, you make better decisions, you also have more control over the situation. So I've tried to really do that. And I think the other one, which is a great broking one, which I say a lot to people, is when you can not when you have to. Now that can relate to an equity raising. I tell corporates all the time, raise money when you can not, not when you have to. But it's also in life.
Camilla
Like if you think about investing in your relationships with your friends or your family or your partner. Do things when you can, like build the goodwill when you can, not when you have to. Because by the time you have to, often it's too late. Yeah. So, you know, all those all those types of things and stuff I've carried with me through my career. Like do things when you can for people or be nice when you can. Be generous when you can not, when you have to. Because I think invariably you build a far better picture for yourself and a better surrounding for yourself and those in your in your world. Um, and it's the same with even getting ahead in your career. Like, do you know, I act like you're getting promoted when you can now, not when you, you know, when they're doing the interview. By then, it's often too late. I agree. There's lots of ways that can be used, I think.
Camilla
I love those pieces of advice because it's funny, because it's they're different to everybody else's pieces of advice that I've been, you know, I've been collecting.
Camilla
What's everyone else saying.
Camilla
No. In that, in that they're quite, they're very, um, they're very they're very personal. They're very different. They're very you know, I love the just be cool and just the.
Camilla
Yeah, well that's.
Camilla
B b as it is, right? Take a few breaths. Think about it. Don't have to make any decisions right now. Just be cool. Be in the moment. Think about it tomorrow, all that sort of stuff. And then and also that on the, you know, do things, um, when you can and not when you have to is absolutely true of everything. So I think about, you know, as you said, capital raises. Well, you know, when you have to under stress, the company is under stress. You're not going to get the right price. You're probably not going to get enough capital, all of that. So absolutely.
Camilla
And be good to people when you can. Because often you're in a situation you can be more generous or you can do something kind for someone, or you can give them a hand up or whatever it it can relates to your career, to your life, to your friends, or even the person in the street, you know, at the shop or whatever. Just do it when you can because you'll find when you have to. Yeah, that doesn't build as much goodwill. And sometimes you need that goodwill to come back to you And I've had, you know, in my career situations where I have needed people to look after me for various reasons, and I think because I've managed to create that ecosystem of trying to be decent all the time, it usually goes both ways. So yeah, I think that's probably the best piece of advice I've really ever run with. I love it, and the the being cool one's really funny because I work in this environment. Like which is so not.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah. So it's just like hectic like and then you're like everyone and Karen's like the Zen person. I'm just being cool in the middle of it.
Camilla
Which sometimes with the Chinese drives them a bit nuts. But I think the reality is, is, you know, we're in this environment. You've got to make instant decisions. But if you just take that tiny second to just be cool, we're going to make all these instant decisions, but we're not going to lose our minds. You'll end up with far better outcomes than like, you know, you lose control. You don't know what you're doing. You're just doing random things that you regret.
Camilla
Decision making is.
Camilla
Really bad.
Camilla
When you're under pressure and having to do things right now and not cool, right?
Camilla
Do you know what the other thing I mean? This might not. It may be poor advice, though. If you were in an er, like a form of the doctor in the ER, I don't want you to be cool. I want you to operate on me immediately. So.
Camilla
No, but I want you. But I still want you to be cool like you always. Like I always sit there because, you know, I'm. I'm a lifesaver. Um, you know, some of the beaches on the weekends, sometimes in summer. And, you know, when things happen and the paramedics have to be, you know, called, they're walking across the sand to the incident. They're not running. Right? That's true. Actually. That's true. They are being cool because they're taking in their surroundings. Yeah, they're thinking about things. They're going okay, you know, they're triaging already in their brain about what's happening. And they're taking that time to analyse and assess. So it's it's it is cool.
Camilla
Well, I guess you're right. When you're in a crisis situation, the last thing you want is some maniac running at you with like a pair of defibrillators. You're like, hang on, calm down, please. Like just be cool.
Camilla
Just be cool. Hey.
Camilla
Yeah, like. Calm down. Exactly.
Camilla
So we're at the end of our podcast. And do you know what happens at the end of our podcast where we ask you, like 1001 questions? So the quickfire. Right. So quickfire questions you got to I'm going to throw them at you. You got to tell me exactly the first thing that comes into your mind. Um, and just, you know, just be you. Just be you. Okay. You ready?
Camilla
Okay. Perfect. Okay. Ready? Let's do it. Okay.
Camilla
Now, question number one. How would your friends describe you?
Camilla
Outgoing.
Camilla
What is the most important money lesson you've learnt?
Camilla
Make more of it.
Camilla
What movie do you absolutely love but is, ah, totally embarrassed to admit?
Camilla
Oh, I mean, gosh, everything's embarrassing. Dirty rotten scoundrels. That's fun. Has has to. Yeah, that has to be one of the great movies.
Camilla
Totally. totally I mean. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Give me my Steve Martin. Like hilarious. Hilarious. It's so.
Camilla
Funny. I mean, that's scene in the casino at Monaco. You can't you can't go past that movie.
Camilla
Not at all. Not at all. And do you know what that reminds me of? My dad. Dirty rotten scoundrels. So funny. Um, anyway, if you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?
Camilla
Anna Wintour, because I think she's got big attitude. And I would like to know if she's a decent person underneath all of that.
Camilla
Um, I'm sure she would be.
Camilla
And. Yeah, well, I feel like she would be, but. And then I'd actually love to have dinner with some of the big guys who run hedge funds. I think that would be fascinating for someone like me. But just to pick their brains. Michael Lewis. Why is he. Yeah, to pick their brains. And I want Michael Lewis at the table because I just have to. I have to meet this guy.
Camilla
You need to geek out. You need to be like celebrity. Like, oh, my gosh, I love you. That sort of stuff. And I've read all your books. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Um, if I wasn't doing this job, I would be a.
Camilla
Racing car driver. F1 driver?
Camilla
Yes. On my bucket list is.
Camilla
I want to spend like a year living in the Greek islands.
Camilla
To say. I'll give you that.
Camilla
Working on my tan. Just for a whole year.
Camilla
I'll come.
Camilla
Yeah, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna have parties, Camilla. So. Yeah. Of course.
Camilla
Totally, totally. Tell me something that nobody else knows about you.
Camilla
Oh, but as you said, I've got a lot of opinions, so I'm fearful that everyone knows everything I've got to say. So they probably don't know that I spend a lot more time thinking about things than I might appear to.
Camilla
Oh, you're. Yeah, you're very considered.
Camilla
Yeah, maybe. But I give the impression I'm not. No.
Camilla
No. If I was a superhero, I'd be.
Camilla
Wonder Woman because she's. She's seemed pretty cool. And she had amazing hair, which I think is a number one skill. Totally.
Camilla
That the brown locks in the gold headband. Yeah. Oh my God! Amazing.
Camilla
And the boots. The boots. And, like, the whole thing.
Camilla
And it's a whole situation. Boom! Boom. Like, seriously amazing. Yeah.
Camilla
Yeah I.
Camilla
Agree. What? Secret of the universe would you most want to learn how to do? That's a really.
Camilla
That's a tough one.
Camilla
Like fly or. I don't know.
Camilla
I was going to say, you know, do some, like, I don't even know how to make a cappuccino. That would be a great secret of the universe.
Camilla
I'd like to know.
Camilla
Well, we've got this coffee machine in my house I've never used, so I.
Camilla
Don't even drink coffee, so I don't know how to use them either.
Camilla
No. Well, neither do I, but I feel like it's one of those socially awkward moments where people go, oh, you've got this cappuccino machine in the wall. I'll have. I'll have a cappuccino. I'm like, well, no, thank you. You can have it. I can press the button.
Camilla
It will work. But I don't know if. Do I have to do anything before that? It's so true.
Camilla
I'm like. I'm like, what about a champagne? No one really needs a copy.
Camilla
I'm with you. No coffee? Definitely the champagne. Definitely the champagne. Okay. And my last question is complete this sentence. A career in finance is the.
Camilla
Best thing you will ever do. And the biggest joy.
Camilla
Oh. Oh, that just fills my cup. I love that because it's so true. It's absolutely so true. And I'm so glad you know, we have covered so much stuff in our, you know, short period. It's been like nearly 50 minutes. But, you know, we've covered curiosity. We've covered just be cool. We've covered the whole the change AI and the change in the sell side. We've you know how you got in I just Karen you are the bomb. And I absolutely loved our conversation today. And you know, it was so lovely to have you on chestnut shoes.
Camilla
Thank you so much. And I've got to say I did this podcast because I absolutely think the title is amazing. Besides the work you do for women in this industry, the title of this has really piqued my interest as a girl with more shoes than I should ever admit to you. But and I love a shoe, so I love it. So well done and thank you so much for having me. It was such a good chat. It was fun.
Camilla
Thanks, Karen, I hope to have you on again because I think there's, as you said, we could do this for three hours.
Camilla
I'm sure I know next time with the champagne.
Camilla
Yeah, exactly. Let's do that. Okay. It's a date. You know, the information that is in this podcast. We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.