This week, on Season 6, Episode 3 of the Shares Not Shoes Podcast, we meet Annabelle Miller, Principal, Investments at ECP Asset Management.
Annabelle discusses her reasons for entering the world of finance, what the day in the life of a global equities manager is like and the importance of taking risks.
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Annabelle
So I think you have to make a few mistakes. I think you have to fall in love and you think you have to get your fingers burned.
Camilla
Welcome, everyone. Back to another episode of Shares, Not Shoes An Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host Camilla Love, founder of F3 Future Females in Finance Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you, I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories. We'll be open and honest and will inspire you.
Camilla
So let's go!
Camilla
Welcome everybody to another fabulous episode of Shares Not Shoes. And today's guest, like all the others, is a cracking One. Um, this person has been on my list of people to come along on the podcast for ages because I've known her forever, and we've sat on panels together and I've been to her old school and I love her to death, so I'm super excited to have her on. This person has been looking at global equities for her pretty much her whole career, so none. No better person to ask all the hard questions for. Um, you know, has been in the industry for a reasonably long period of time, coming from Pendal to PM and now at ECP. And welcome, Annabel Miller.
Annabelle
Thank you for having me, Camilla. It's nice to have a chat. So excited.
Camilla
I've been looking for an excuse. And it's funny because this season is all about people who I've been looking for an excuse to. Come on. Um, because we're just doing a deep dive into equities and equities markets both buy side and sell side. So I'm loving loving the fact that I get to pick your brain today. One of the smartest people I know. So no. Um so maybe best to start with you tell me what you do, how you got into finance, and you know a bit about why you love it.
Annabelle
Yeah. So currently I'm at ECP asset management in a principal role looking at global equities. We've just established a global companies fund looking at small to mid size, mainly global companies with a quality growth framework. But basically how I got into finance to go back to maybe the end of school, I took a gap year and so on. That gap year it was. I had enrolled in psychology, um, commerce kind of degree, a psych, basically a psychology degree, and I wasn't quite sure. So I went overseas on a gap year, and I spent six months at a boarding school, hated life. And then, um.
Camilla
It's a rite of passage for pretty much every Australian kid who either goes to the UK and does a boarding school stint or vice versa. They come back, they come here to write. Yeah, you're middle of nowhere, middle of nowhere.
Annabelle
And this is coming from someone who, you know, I grew up in Taramurra and, you know, 20 minutes from the city, 30 minutes from the city. I was literally in the middle of the Yorkshire countryside with no car, no train. Oh, God. The nearest train station was an hour away by car and and bratty children. And very, very bratty children. And after six months, you know, um, I decided it wasn't for me. And so I looked on Gumtree and there was an Australian family looking for a nanny in Surrey, which is very close to the centre of, um, you know, London. And so I went and I managed to get that job. And through them, you know, they were both in finance. So, um, the woman she worked for, Qantas and the husband, um, he worked for, um, a few sort of private equity run companies and they convinced me to change my degree.
Camilla
And we love them for it. Yes.
Annabelle
Um, from psychology to commerce. So I got back to Australia after a year of being overseas and travelling and working for them. Um, and I ended up working as a continued to work as a nanny while I was at university. And so I ended up enrolling in a in a commerce degree through the University of Sydney. Um, and it was, you know, I started university in 2008, so it was during the GFC. And so it was a really great time. Great time. And um, it just so happened my dad is a very, um, you know, he, he manages his own self-managed super fund and prides himself on his, you know, share, share. He has an.
Camilla
Opinion.
Annabelle
And he has an opinion. Yeah. And, you know, um, halfway through 2008, when the market was falling apart, he said to me, he's, you know, Roger Montgomery's book. I think you should read it. Um, I think you should start investing. I'll help you out. Um, in terms of, you know, how to look at businesses. Yeah, it's just starting. And so we opened a brokerage account, um, through E-Trade, and, um, I put some money to work in. I think the first three shares I bought were Westpac. What was IMF Bentham, which is a litigation funder, and some random kind of gold mining company that ended up actually being taken out. Most of them turned into duds. But this one, yeah, this one got taken out. Um, and so that really started my journey on investing.
Camilla
So then so how did you get into the industry? Because, you know, you started as a grad. Yes. Direct in. Right. Which is very unusual these days.
Annabelle
It was very lucky. So I finished my degree and I had applied to a number of grad programmes, and perpetual were looking to hire their first ever cohort of graduates, and they were hiring two in each division. So two in private wealth, two in investments. And I just so happened to breeze my way through the interview somehow.
Camilla
Haha. I'll take it, she says.
Annabelle
Well, I think they were sort of looking for a male and a female, and I just so happened to, you know, be the one that they decided to choose. Um, and really, that was my first foray. It was a two year programme, and at that time, perpetual, um, was I went into the um, investments team, the investments division, and the culture is what really stood out to me. It was such a great culture there at the time. Um, and it's the culture that you sort of hear, you know, if you've ever heard of Peter Morgan, talk about the good old days of perpetual. Obviously it's probably changed a bit since then, but, um, you know, that was one of the grounding, um, sort of, uh, factors. Um, now, when I look at where, you know, places to work that I sort of focus on that cultural aspect.
Camilla
Um, and it's, um, so I will put a big plug in for perpetual because they're a big supporter of what I do at F3. And, um, you know, hopefully a number of the girls that we put through the work Experience programme. Actually get interviewed for their internship and graduate recruitment programmes. So big shout out to perpetual. But perpetual at the time was this mastery place in investments where you know, the heads of and it was perpetual like the next one and the next one and the next one. There was this like, you know, it was a conveyor belt of really, really talented portfolio managers that are just coming up through the ranks from dealer to analyst to portfolio manager, then to the head. And, you know, I worked under one as well, John Murray and again, the, the, the cultures that they set up and each one of them went off and set up pretty much their own business. Right. So yeah, it was a rite of passage and, and it was a really great shop to hone your skills.
Camilla
Yeah.
Annabelle
And that's the one thing that stood out for me when I was applying for the grad roles I had at the time. My last year of university, funnily enough, perpetual had been, um, under takeover bid by KKR. Um, and my, you know, funnily.
Camilla
Enough, full.
Annabelle
Circle, total full circle. And that's what sort of attracted me. And I had sort of, you know, been reading about John Sevier and Matt Williams and I thought, oh, this this seems like where I think the stars have aligned. And so, you know, during that grad programme over two years, I got to sit in the morning meetings of the investment team. So I never actually worked in the investment team there. But every morning I'd be so excited to get in and go and sit and listen to the analysts talk about, you know, all the crazy CEOs that they've sort of been meeting and all the behind the scenes kinds of conversations that happen in these funds and the.
Camilla
Gossip and the scuttlebutt, everything. Love that. And you was like, what? A 18 year old 19 year old were just like, oh my God, this is amazing. Yes.
Annabelle
And I think, you know, for women, um, there's not a lot of still not a lot of women in the industry. Um, I find it disappointing because I, I derive so much energy from going into work every day and being so excited to sit in those meetings. Um, it has, you know, investing, unfortunately, must have this stigma of being boring or something, but I absolutely I was so thrilled to go in every to work every day. It was just the best thing.
Camilla
I, I just love the fact that you were working elsewhere in the business and would still come in for the morning meetings.
Annabelle
I now I look back and I'm sure there were a few that.
Camilla
Were probably going, woo hoo! But it's the enthusiasm, right? It's it's it's everything. And if that is the area that you want to go into, regardless of, you know, the grad recruitment programme that you're on or you do like a stint here and a stint there within the business, if you are super passionate about one area, then you know you do that. You would do that.
Annabelle
And I think, you know, to doing a grad programme and speaking of its benefits, you know, going to perpetual and doing those two years was really important in terms of having a full, rounded understanding of how a funds management business works from the front office and back office kind of synergies. So how do investment operations work? How, you know, how do trades get done, how do they get settled? How does the reporting to the ASX work. And then, you know, how does the marketing team use that information to create, you know, the sales pitch? Um, and so not just focusing on one specific area in isolation, but understanding how the whole machine works is really critical in building up those base layers to build your career on, because you don't necessarily know when you start out where you want to go and where you want to, what you want to do. So having that sort of rotation programme helps in figuring out, okay, I definitely want to go down this path.
Camilla
And so you're at ECP now, why you've gone from, you know, big behemoth to, you know, boutique essentially along along the way. Why choose um, a boutique. And what is it about ECP that you enjoy?
Annabelle
So the boutique is really around. I love the idea of working in small teams. So investing for me, um, it's more personable, um, when it's in a smaller team. And over the course of my career, I've sort of managed to figure out how incentives drive behaviour. And so if the wrong incentives are in place, it can create problems within the culture that actually impact how money and capital is allocated in terms of investing framework. And so ACP is one place that I just rave about. The culture is just phenomenal because Manny, through his long tenured career, first at establishing Hyperion and now establishing ACP, he's figured out the perfect team culture to drive performance and camaraderie. So there's no one key man making all the calls. It's very much a team based approach to investing. And so, you know, people raise ideas, do a brief kind of, you know, what we call a butcher's paper, which is essentially like a stock pitch. And then everyone chips in, you know, feedback questions.
Annabelle
Have you considered this? Have you considered that and gives a sign off. And so it's not like one one person saying, no, you can't look at that. It's more of a considered team approach and it has to meet various criteria. But it's very much more collaborative. And people, you know, helping each other out as opposed to, you know, being an individual silo. Um, and I think that's really reflective of the long term track record that the firm has produced since inception. Really. Um. It's incredible. Um, and I can't speak highly enough of the guys that I work with. You know, they, um, we have. The thing is, when you have that kind of culture, you just love going into work. It's just you have so many laughs and it doesn't feel like work. Yeah.
Camilla
And we talk about culture all the time. Like there is not a podcast that goes past that. We don't talk about culture because it really is a values based piece. And, you know, it's sort of the way I describe it is sort of similar to looking at ESG. When you look at company analysis, those companies that are really good at ESG are really good at other things. So the companies that are really good at culture and, you know, conveying and, you know, bubbling up the right culture are really good at other things, looking after their staff, getting strong performance, looking after clients, all that sort of stuff are all ticks in the box and they all come from that one catalyst.
Annabelle
Yeah, it's 100% true. And um, funnily enough, um, ECP has that ESG focus, you know, in their investing framework and it's and it kind of all stems from that cultural piece as well, um, where you're doing, you know, your values are reflected inside the business. And, you know, Manny, for instance, you know, he treats his staff like family, Like we all went off to Taylor Swift the other month with our partners.
Camilla
Oh, cute. Oh, did you wear your, like, sparkles and everything? And sequins.
Annabelle
I know I didn't have any friendship bracelets, but some of the dang some of the, you know, some of the guys bought their young, young kids.
Camilla
Oh that's lovely.
Annabelle
Yeah, they really enjoyed it. So it's that kind of family culture, particularly now that I've got two girls of my own. You know, I just love it. It's, you know, and they have playdates together.
Camilla
Ah. Oh my gosh. So then so tell me about your day to day job. What do you what do you actually do?
Annabelle
Every day is a bit sort of different. There's no sort of rigid structure. Um, because I work global markets, you know, the first thing I usually do is check my share prices in the morning. Yep.
Camilla
First thing. What time do you get up? Is it really early before the close of the UK? Um, US market. Yeah.
Annabelle
So like, um, before I went on maternity leave, I usually get up about 430. Um, yeah. Okay. But I mean, if I wake up in the middle of the night, you know, my husband.
Camilla
Check it anyway.
Annabelle
My husband does complained because if I know there's a result coming out, I like to know. Yeah, yeah. The shares not imploded on me. Um. Yeah. Totally. And so I usually, you know, check overnight news is the first thing I do, um, get ready for the day, and then I usually catch the train to go to work. And so that gives me a chance to sort of catch up on anything important that's happened overnight. Um, I usually I do like to go on what is now called X or Twitter, um, because there's a whole, you know, community gossip, finance, finance guys on there from overseas mainly. So it's, you know, you get the overseas kind of, um, news what's going on in the market over there. And so when I get into work, I fire up my Bloomberg and just read. Um, I've got my watch list of companies that I've got in the fund. And so I just go through overnight news and then it's about I usually like to have a few hours where I just focus on one, one company.
Annabelle
And so if I'm doing, you know, a new company that I'm putting a butcher's paper together on or working on a new research report, um, I'll spend, you know, 3 or 4 hours just going through expert call transcripts or organising calls with management, reading annual reports. Um, it's very much focused research. Um, and so I just like to switch off everything and just focus. Um, and then I allocate usually, you know, uh, towards the end of the day, time to do an investment diary, which is a log of, you know, particularly if there's been sort of trading activity in the fund. And one of my shares, for whatever reason, has moved up or down, and we're buying or selling. I like to just document, you know my thoughts about what's driving that decision process. So I have a log of, um, you know, my thought process to look back on. Should it not pan out the way I expected? Um.
Camilla
So that's that's great discipline to have.
Annabelle
It is, it is. It's hard to maintain. So I do have like a daily reminder. I'm not not religious about it, but I definitely do it every week.
Camilla
Because they always say that, um, you know, the markets, you know, aren't never the same. Like you can't look back in history, but they do rhyme. So I mean, obviously having those logs, you can look back and go, hey, well this happened 3 or 4 years ago and XYZ was the outcome. And so have you had periods of that where you've just looked at it and went, oh yeah.
Annabelle
Every now and again, you know, you have to remind yourself not to focus too much on the macro because you can. There's always something to be.
Camilla
Company specific stuff that'll you know.
Annabelle
Yeah, there's always something to worry about in terms of, you know, higher interest rates, lower interest rates, higher oil prices, lower oil prices, um, things, you know, elections are happening all the time. So it's important to focus on the business fundamentals from a bottom up perspective. Um, I usually find that the things that repeat, um, are more around behaviour patterns within management teams. So, um, you know, that's interesting. Um, you know, following management teams around, you find CEOs, move from company to company, and they'll execute the same pattern of behaviour, whether that's, you know, buying and selling or overpaying for businesses basically.
Camilla
Yeah. Or yeah, roll out growth strategy, whatever it is. It's like the playbook. Do you specialise in a certain sector or or country? How do you break up your global portfolio.
Annabelle
So I'm what's called a generalist. So I have no specific sector or country that I look at. Um, when we look broadly for new ideas, for instance, I tend to stick to developed markets. So North America, Europe, um, are the main markets that I focus on. And that's just because culturally it's a lot easier to a understand and B you're not sort of get access to management. Yeah. Get access to money. I do, I do look at Japan. So I have a few Japanese companies in the fund and, but they tend to have management teams that either have some kind of um, you know, one particular company, um, or a US business a while ago. And so half the management team actually are American. And so their disclosures are all in English as well as, um, And they have lodged US shareholder as well. So, um, yeah, it's a generalist approach and it's mainly our stock selection is mainly driven by our investing framework which is quality growth.
Annabelle
So we're looking for businesses in the growth phase of their life cycle that have strong balance sheets, good cash flows. And we see a long pathway of them continuing to improve their financial profile.
Camilla
Do you have a do you have a bias like do you do you tend to really like, I don't know, tech stocks or really like consumer discretionary personally?
Annabelle
Um, I don't the investing framework definitely tends towards looking at businesses in certain areas. So you find that high quality businesses there a lot in the tech area healthcare, um, communications, internet, um, they're less so in the commodities area. So that naturally tends to narrow the pool down a lot. When you sort of look at it through a quality investing lens, do you.
Camilla
I mean, I was talking to Elise McKay and I asked her the same question, which was, do you fall in love with stocks? Because there has to be, you know, some sort of love there somewhere. And then what do you do? Like, I've seen analysts and they're absolutely enamoured. And the stock price is falling and they just kept falling with it. Or they can't sell at their top prices. Um, because they just think there's going to be a little bit more a little bit more like how do you how do you get around that?
Annabelle
I think it's a company on, you know, it varies company to company. So what I will say is you should never fall in love with the business because you You don't have control like someone else is making the decisions about capital allocation. So that's the first thing to bear in mind. But a lot of these really high quality businesses, you look back on them, you know, 20 years ago and they just keep growing. So once you find a really high quality business, it's about assessing the fundamentals like and looking at the moat and whether it's increasing over time. Because a business that I love, you know, I'm going to use the word love, you know, is is a company called Copart. And you look at its competitive position, it owns its own land, it operates salvaged car yards, you know, just to give you the high level pitch, operates salvage car yards and they operate, um, you know, online options for basically beaten up cars. And you have to store these cars somewhere.
Annabelle
And so they've, you know, over the last 70 years, they've acquired land in really hard to replicate positions across the US and across the UK and Europe. And so now they have a virtual monopoly in the US. And that part, those parcels of land cannot be purchased. They're worth a huge amount of money. Wow. And they're now being what's happened is over 70 years you've had, you know, urban sprawl. So what they did purchase on the outskirts is now in the middle of suburbia. And so competitors cannot purchase the same block of land at the same price. It would cost them too much. And so, you know that, um, those unit economics are preserved over the next decades. And so it's very much, you know, okay, um, you look at the economics of copart today and you sort of do a rough valuation and say, oh, the the shares, you know, they're they're reasonably valued. It's not like you're buying them at a bargain price. But should the price fall?
Annabelle
Maybe you increase your position, but it's the kind of company that you sort of would be reluctant to sell completely unless the valuation got completely out of whack. So I tend to sort of look at things and say, well, size is probably more important than price. Mhm.
Camilla
Yeah. And I, I agree with that. I do agree with that. But it's always just a funny little conundrum right.
Annabelle
It is. And and it comes from experience. So I think you have to make a few mistakes. I think you have to fall in love and you think you have to get your fingers burned because I used to, you know, in a former role, I used to look a lot at gold companies. And the gold sector is just a wasteland, particularly junior gold companies. You know, it's just like, yeah, some parts of the tech sector where they just burn money, they just raise money and burn it.
Camilla
And so talking about that actually, because, you know, one of the hot topics that everyone wants to talk about right now is The Magnificent Seven. What's your thoughts? Everyone's got an opinion, so I love yours.
Annabelle
Yeah, I do have a strong opinion. I think some some businesses in the Magnificent Seven like Microsoft. Just a phenomenal business. It's just you look at how I remember. It's actually one of the first global shares I bought in my own portfolio before I actually became a global equities specialist. The Aussie was trading one for one with the US dollar back in about 2012. And I thought, right, I'm going to buy some shares. And so one of the ones I bought was Microsoft. And I remember thinking at the time it was a value stock. It was you know, it was on like nine times earnings. And I was thinking, oh, this is the cheapest thing ever. No growth. And um, what's happened with Microsoft just to single out one of The Magnificent Seven is nothing short of incredible because you don't see it many times in your career where a value stock becomes a growth stock. So I think it's been rerated four times over from when I wanted it nine times earnings. It's probably now mid 30s.
Annabelle
And so you look at its business and it's just phenomenal. Um you know out of The Magnificent Seven it's one of the most durable business moats that you can find I think.
Camilla
And the transformation of the organisation, particularly in the last 20 years, has been pretty amazing. It has. And um, and the focus, their focus on AI too. So they've managed to make.
Annabelle
A few leaps, um, which, yeah, it's very hard to find businesses you often find, you know, there's a great chart by, um, gavekal that looks at the top ten companies by decade, by market cap. And you often find they change every decade. And so we haven't had that change yet. So last decade we had the same sort of, you know, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Google, Amazon. And it hasn't changed this decade yet. And you sort of wonder, are we in a new paradigm or is that change can happen. You just these.
Camilla
Businesses well, we're not there yet.
Annabelle
Well, these businesses, they're a bit different to, um, businesses historically because of their user bases. Their user bases are global, their billions of users multiple across multiple products, and they're entrenched in your everyday life. So you look at a company like Apple, I can't survive without my iPhone.
Camilla
Yeah. And then you compare it to like, a Coke or an IBM or a, I don't know, Texas Instruments way back in the day. Right. And, you know, totally different business proposition.
Annabelle
Yeah. Totally different. Um, and their products are just, uh, very sticky and addictive.
Camilla
Yeah. Good thing sometimes.
Annabelle
Well, that's sometimes. Right.
Camilla
So what's the best part of your role?
Annabelle
Probably making money. Yeah.
Camilla
Well, we want to be your client if that's the best part of your role. Right.
Annabelle
Well, you know, I think it's that competitive aspect where, you know, the the absolute, um, it's not so much about the money. It's more about seeing that satisfying share price move when you, your thesis starts playing out as you expect.
Camilla
Nice.
Annabelle
And you sort of look at that number and it keeps going up and up and up and you're like, ah.
Camilla
And it's got to come down at some point, but I'll keep it running. Yeah.
Annabelle
But and, and that's, and that's the double edged sword. Right. You know when it's when, when that share price goes up quite a bit and you're like, oh I really don't want to sell. low. And you know, you valuations sort of gotten skinnier and skinnier because we go by IRR. So my my IRR has you know gone from 20% to 2%. And you're like oh I really don't want to sell it or you know and you sort of that that is the hard part being disciplined about the selling.
Camilla
But that's why you've got a framework. Your investment framework around you. Right. So you the discipline is there. The decision is sort of taken away.
Annabelle
But it's interesting because I've worked for managers in the past where, um, there is a framework there and it gets ignored.
Speaker 3
Ooh.
Camilla
And so, so as a, as a staff member, as an investment team member, like what does that do? What does that do to you?
Annabelle
It's hard. You sort of because you can it's much easier to see mistakes other people are making, not your own. And so yeah, sure. If you have a culture where critical feedback is valued and you have a voice, then you can express those thoughts. But if you don't, then they don't get heard.
Camilla
Mhm. But then also I think it would also be sort of deflating in your job. Right. So you know if you see particularly leadership it's their framework and that you know they're ignoring it, then what's it to say that you can't ignore the same framework or other frameworks in the business which arguably could be better, which are like business policies and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. It is.
Annabelle
It's very hard. And that's why it comes back to the cultural aspect of things. You know, making sure that, you know, you're consistent across all, all areas of the business. And so that the person at the top.
Camilla
Yeah. So what what keeps you up at night these days?
Annabelle
Uh, currently a three month old. Um, yeah.
Camilla
I knew that was going to be the answer, but I was thinking more work related. But I absolutely had to ask it because I know exactly that answer.
Annabelle
Yeah, no. It's funny. Like, I mean, it doesn't it doesn't bother me because when I get up, the share markets open. So I have something to do. Um, um, usually what keeps me up is more, you know, there's a lot of, um, political turmoil, I'd say. Um, and you look at how the world is moving. Um, particularly in sort of western spheres. Um, and the rise of, um, countries with values and systems of governance that don't necessarily align with how we operate here in Australia. Um, yeah. And that that is concerning because, you know, democracy and freedom of speech and the values that we have here are not replicated in societies, um, in China, for instance, or some of the developing markets, particularly in countries where women don't have a voice. Mhm. And they're not treated as equals. And so I think preserving that, you know, the systems we have here and the ability of, you know, no matter who you are to work hard and know that you're going to be awarded based on merit, is so, so fundamental and so critical to the well functioning, you know, growth.
Camilla
I agree.
Annabelle
Economies.
Camilla
So agree. And like we're on the precipice of the French election which will be interesting. And we're looking down the barrel to the US election which is another interesting little conundrum. And then what the outcome is, because there can be, you know, different policy outcomes on all of that. Right. And how it affects companies and the way that you construct your portfolios.
Annabelle
Yeah. And, you know, I try not to sort of let it impact too much of how I make, um, investment decisions and analyse businesses. But it's important to understand, um, whether there are any what I would call terminal risks, should there be a change in government or should a certain, you know, person be elected overseas? And that could cause a meaningful shift in policy that would affect your company. So it is it's important to be mindful of that risk and make a sort of appropriate assessment of how it might impact the future cash flows. Um, but that being said, I remember Brexit and I remember, you know, Donald Trump's first time being elected. And both of those outcomes were not expected by the market. So true. And you sort of you just don't know. It's a short.
Camilla
Answer. Yeah. You don't know.
Annabelle
So as long as you're not um, you know, you don't have all your eggs in one basket, I would say. Um, then you can be prepared. Be prepared, but not risk adverse. Like, I think it's important just to be sensible.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah. Totally agree. Totally agree. So, hey. Is there. I always I'm always interested in, um, you know, how people get to where they are and, um, how you know who you are as an entire sort of person. And so one of my questions that I, you know, periodically ask is whether there's there's been, you know, a sliding doors moment in your career where you could have chosen one or the other path, or maybe it was a bit of a pivotal point that you went, you know, you look back and either you reflect on or could have done this or actually I reflect on the fact that I've done I've made the right choice and I've done the right thing.
Annabelle
Yeah. Okay. So I, um, I think I had this moment when I came back from maternity leave the first time. So Covid had happened and I had gone on maternity leave in 2021. Um, and I came back to the role I had before ECP in 2022, and I sort of knew when I went on maternity leave that I was like, um, I had sort of doubts about whether I really wanted to continue to work there. And something happened internally and I just something snapped in my brain. And I had a young baby at home who was one. And I thought, life is too short. Yeah. I was like, I'm done. And so, um, I had been in conversation with ECP prior to going on maternity leave, and it wasn't quite right. I had my my reservations because whilst they focus on quality and I'm very much a quality person, I had been in a value based framework for a very long time and um, so my brain was wired that way in a value here in a value framework.
Annabelle
And I remember having a conversation with you actually, and you put down you said to me it was a great piece of advice and I cherish it. You put down your negotiables and your non-negotiables and my negotiables were, you know, the value, the value and the growth. And I was like, well, it's not important to me. No, you can do, you know, and I and then I saw, I read, um, I went for a few walks with the guys and the team. I do CrossFit with Sam, who I work with. And, um, so I, you know, I know I know the team pretty well, like the back of my hand. And I just it felt right and it was the right time. And, um, funnily enough, I moved when I moved across in October 2022. That was the bottom of the growth kind of sell off that we had. Yeah. And it's just it was a great time. It's been great ever since.
Annabelle
But you.
Camilla
Know that. I'll ride that wave. Thanks.
Annabelle
That that conversation that we had. Camila. Um, I will I very much appreciate that advice that you gave me, because that was my sliding doors moment, and I decision that I made was a scary one, because I had been with my prior company for a long time, and I was telling my husband because at the same time, my husband actually resigned from his job and he started his own business. So I felt we both like we both leapt off the building together, holding hands.
Camilla
You know. Well, that's good though, right? At least everyone's going off at the same time.
Annabelle
And, um, we and from from that moment, you know, we were talking about the other night, like, look how far we've come in terms of just our careers and what we've been, you know, and I felt like I had someone with me, you know, and that comes. I want to make this point actually like for a lot of women, um, who you choose as your life partner and having a support, you know, someone there who supports your goals and ambitions and vice versa is so important because we share the load at home. We've got two young children, and it's not totally that one person's career. It's about both of our careers. And so, um, having someone who understands what your goals and you know, what you want to accomplish out of your career and helping you achieve that is just so important.
Camilla
I agree, and having those conversations early in the relationship is really important too. And I talk about it similarly to you in that people say that they're happy to support you going through, you know, the family cycle and all that sort of stuff and your career. But when the rubber hits the road, it doesn't necessarily end up like that. So making sure you you have those conversations early on to say, hey, my career is equally as important as yours is is is important.
Annabelle
Oh, 100%. It's just, um, it's like that buffet, I think it buffet or manga. The most important decision you make was who you're going to marry or who you're going to end up with in life. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly.
Camilla
So tell me, um, so, I mean, you touched on the advice that I've given you. Is there another piece of advice that you would give your 20 year old self?
Annabelle
Yeah, I would, I would just say, um, take a lot of risk when you're younger. Do the thing that you're scared to do. Like, you know, don't be held back by, um, other people's, you know, expectations. Just have a go. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Um.
Camilla
Easier said than done, though, surely?
Annabelle
It is, it is, but I sort of go, you know. And that being said, I wouldn't change anything that I've done. I think I sort of genuinely, I think I genuinely have sort of thrown myself in the deep end as much as I possibly can without sort of going full crazy and starting my own business. Yeah, I think.
Camilla
We've all done that right. So you need to get amongst it.
Annabelle
Yeah. I think, um, while you have no responsibilities, um, because now I have two children, so that kind of anchors you. Yeah. But before that point where you don't have responsibilities, um, do go overseas. Work overseas, if that's what you want to do. Um, try a few roles, because otherwise you just you don't want to end up, um, you know, at a point where you do have responsibilities and you regret not sort of exploring different opportunities.
Camilla
Yeah, I agree. And, you know, put your hand up for everything, you know, make the mistakes you need to make because, you know, 20 is a really great learning opportunity.
Annabelle
Yeah, 100%. That's right. Um.
Camilla
Um, okay. So we're coming to the end of our discussion. Oh, my God, that's been so quick. Um, so we do this quick fire round. You've got to answer the first thing that comes. You ready? You ready for this, right? No, no, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Okay, first question is. My hidden talent is cooking. Really?
Annabelle
Yeah. Yeah, I do quite a bit of cooking really. And now I'm. Now I'm on maternity leave. It's like the luxury that I. It started during Covid actually when I had my first, um, you know when you do the baby led weaning and I was preparing all these gourmet dishes for the baby, and my husband would be like, oh, where's mine? Yeah. And I was like, no, this is for the baby.
Camilla
This, this all gets mushed up, right? Where whatever.
Annabelle
We roasted salmon with a herbed butter.
Camilla
Oh my gosh. Oh my god I hope that's flipped now.
Annabelle
It has. It has.
Camilla
Okay good good good good. Um, what are you reading right now?
Annabelle
Um, I just finished Killing the Witches by Bill O'Reilly.
Camilla
Was it good?
Annabelle
Excellent. Um, so Bill O'Reilly has one called Confronting the Presidents, which comes out in September, which takes a look at, um, every single US president.
Speaker 4
And.
Annabelle
His assessment of whether they're being good or bad for the country. So I'm looking forward to that one. But killing the witches was great because it sort of goes through the Salem witch trials, um, which happened. And I think there's a lot of parallels in terms of what's happening now in society and how the media is putting people on trial, um, without necessarily making a facts based assessment of, um, events. Um, and I suppose it sort of combines with hysteria on social media. Um, and so looking back at, you know, Salem witch trials and it sort of took me back to my drama days where we read The Crucible. Yep. And I just love all that sort of historical kind of, uh, all the historical analogies that you can draw to present day. Great. Highly recommend.
Camilla
Okay. I might have to borrow it. Um, if you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?
Annabelle
Probably. Um. So my grandma, who was a 103, passed away about two years ago, and I probably have her just because she was great and I loved her company.
Camilla
Oh that's nice. Great innings too, right?
Annabelle
Yeah. She was she was with it till till the very end. Oh, I love it. Yeah.
Camilla
That's fabulous. If I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a private investor. Really?
Annabelle
I just yeah.
Camilla
How are you going to make your money to be able to do that, then?
Annabelle
Well, I suppose I just, you know, I have to take a lot of risk and build up my capital base, maybe borrow a bit of money from the bank. Yeah. Trade on margin. Live dangerously. Oh my.
Camilla
God. Let's leverage up a little bit.
Speaker 4
Haha.
Annabelle
My home equity. Yeah, exactly.
Camilla
Um, if I was a superhero, I'd be.
Annabelle
Uh elastigirl. Is that one?
Camilla
Oh, yes. You've definitely, uh, you've definitely in your kid movies these days, aren't you?
Annabelle
The only reason I say elastigirl is because I've been trying to improve my flexibility whilst on maternity leave, and I do these range of motion stuff. And there's a guy on YouTube called Elastic Boy or something, and, um, I've been watching his shorts and I think, oh, wouldn't it be great to be able to do, you know, backflips and handstands and all those sorts of things? Yeah.
Camilla
No, I can do, I can do a what do they call it in yoga, a bridge or a backward. The backwards bends. That's about as far as I can go. I'm not particularly stretchy either.
Annabelle
Yeah.
Camilla
I wish one day. Um, what secret of the universe. Do you really want to learn to do yourself?
Annabelle
Give me an example.
Camilla
Like fly.
Annabelle
As in fly a plane?
Camilla
No. Fly yourself.
Annabelle
Oh. Oh. Time travelling.
Camilla
Okay, I think that's a great one. Totally. You go back to when? Back to the Salem witch trials.
Annabelle
Could I time travel forwards?
Camilla
Ooh. Where to?
Annabelle
Well, yeah, but.
Camilla
Then you'd know. Then you'd have all the information. Exactly.
Annabelle
Be like that. Um. What's that? Back to the future, where he gets the horse trading book.
Camilla
Yes.
Annabelle
And then he comes back and he thinks about.
Camilla
The power on that.
Annabelle
I know.
Camilla
Wowzers. To think.
Annabelle
About it. Yeah, yeah.
Camilla
Yeah. The ethics. Oh my gosh. Let's not go down that one. Um, okay. What's the most important money lesson you've learned. You can't say the risk one, because obviously we've talked about that already.
Annabelle
Um, most importantly, oh, my husband is probably going to be in my ear. What what can I say that won't get me in trouble?
Camilla
Come on. He won't listen to it. Surely.
Annabelle
Most important money lesson. Um, probably the power of compound interest. So. Yeah. Um, you know, reinvest those dividends, build up, you know, continue building your wealth and investing more and more and more. Um, that's what I would say.
Camilla
How would your friends describe you?
Annabelle
Energetic. I'm always laughing. Mostly at nothing.
Camilla
Nothing wrong with that.
Annabelle
Um, yeah. Just very happy. Happy go lucky kind of person.
Camilla
Great. And describe in Y in three words why a career in finance is totally awesome.
Annabelle
I really enjoy just coming in to work, having a bit of banter with the team and, um, you know, building my own wealth over time. Really. How is that three words?
Camilla
Tell me.
Annabelle
It's not three.
Camilla
Words. Sorry.
Annabelle
I don't have I can't I can't do it in three words.
Camilla
Oh, okay. Okay, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. But I'll tell you what, Annabel, it has been an absolute joy this morning to talk to you. And thanks for being so awesome and such a trailblazer. And I'm so glad that you would ask your grandma, who was 103, that you knew pretty much your whole entire life, to still come back to to have dinner with you. And I'm so glad that you nannied that you had that really awful time. And, um, at the boarding school in the UK and you nannied for a whole bunch of people who inspired you to, to get a, you know, come into finance. I think that's great.
Annabelle
Yeah. And thank you, Camilla, because you've been one of the people in my career that I've come to for advice. And, um, I think you've been there through some of those sliding doors moments for me, so. Thank you.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah. And do you know what? I loved it, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Speaker 4
Wonderful. Thanks.
Camilla
Come again? Again. Okay. Promise?
Annabelle
Definitely.
Camilla
You know the information that is in this podcast? We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.