Welcome to Season 7! From growing up surrounded by finance talk at the dinner table to leading at Schroders Australia, Kellie’s journey is all about passion, risk-taking, and a winning mindset.
In this episode, we dive into:
📉 The wildest time she’s ever managed money – COVID and defensive investing
👊 How leadership is more than just a title
⚡ Why taking risks and seeking feedback are game-changers
🔥 Her competitive drive and obsession with markets
If you’re ready for a masterclass in resilience, leadership, and fixed-income strategy, this one’s for you. 🎧
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Kellie
You need to take risks, because taking risks is what will get you places.
Camilla
Welcome everyone, back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes, an insider's guide to careers in finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of F3 Future Females in Finance. Shares or Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go. Today's guest is another superstar in the FISH fixed income realm. I'd even go to say that she's one of the OGs. She's the current head of fixed income at Schroeders here in Australia and also deputy head of the Multi asset portfolios. Prior to being at Schroeders, she was a PM at ubs, having started her journey in the finance industry at AMP in the grad programme. Yay. Yay. Yay. I can't wait to hear all her stories today. Welcome to Chaise Not Shoes, Kelly Wood.
Kellie
Thanks, Camila. That is a very generous intro.
Camilla
Not generous at all. I've asked lots of people about you because you and I don't know each other very well.
Kellie
No.
Camilla
And I've asked lots of people about you and they have described you as the OG. So there you go.
Kellie
Well, my youngest son, who's 10, said to me the other night, he's like, mum, are you a goat? Are you like the greatest of all time? I'm like, yes, yes. Maybe I'll take that from my son. Nothing. He knows nothing. I'm like, yes, I am. You better believe it.
Camilla
So hang on, hang on. Okay, let's. Let's put that into perspective. Like Michael Jordan, Simone Biles and Kelly Wood. Yeah.
Kellie
Oh, gosh.
Camilla
Okay, so first questions. First, tell us a little bit about you, how you got into finance and even a little bit about what you do day to day. Because sometimes it's just easier to explain to particularly people who are young in the industry or, you know, in the early stages of their career in the industry, about what a day to day role looks like for you.
Kellie
Well, in terms of my background, like, I think I would say my interest in finance and economics started from a very young age. So my dad had a very successful career in banking. We were always a family that had been investing in residential property. So from the dinner table, sort of discussions on sort of growth, inflation, interest rates, housing market, you know, I had that interest from a young age in terms of the macro economy. I was also very good at maths, it was my favourite subject. So like that itself just lended me to that type of role in finance, especially economics and finance, you know, and I think that's where, you know, in high school I studied economics, I went on to do a bachelor degree majoring in economics and finance or bachelor of Commerce, I went on to do my honours year. And you know, over those years, you know, three or four years through school and university, you know, I, I really started to discover the world of fixed income because you know, if you think about equities versus fixed income, you know, fixed income has, the emphasis is very much on the macro economy.
Kellie
And I think my background and my upbringing being exposed to that really led me down that fixed income path rather than that equity path. And I was lucky enough to get a graduate position at AMP Capital straight out of uni where I spent 18 months rotating between fixed income, equities, multi asset research, economics, back office. And that's where I really decided that fixed income is where I need to be. Like that's where my interests lie, that's where my skills lie. And I just went after it.
Camilla
So what clicked for you in that grad role on your rotation? Because most people, fixed income isn't obviously their first choice. Why? I mean you've mentioned your history and sort of stuff. Why was it so exciting for you?
Kellie
I think if I compare fixed income to, to equities, I was, I definitely thought of myself as more of a macro thinker, you know, a bigger picture type thinker, you know, growth, inflation, what's going on in the broader economy rather than individual stock selection, you know, and looking at corporate. So I think that was the clear differentiation where my skills and interests really lay. And that really, you know, pushed me into that sort of channel that was certainly more fixed income or more sort of top down versus bottom up, which is probably another way to explain fixed income versus equities.
Camilla
And so why do you still, you know, I'm going to say 20 something years later, get out of bed every day for your. What you do.
Kellie
I am obsessed with it. Like I seriously do not know who I would be without what I do and, and who I am today. Like it's really defined me as a person like at work and personally. And you know, I think I have been, you know, quite ambitious in terms of my career and moving quickly to get to different roles and to move up the career ladder and, and that has really kept me engaged, you know, and always wanting to grow and to be challenged and making sure that I'm always uncomfortable in my role. You know, I don't want to be mediocre.
Camilla
How do you do that?
Kellie
Well, you need to put yourself out there, you know, and you've, you've just got to put yourself out there and you know, if you're not, if you're not growing, you know, you're not maximising your potential. And I think that's where, you know, if I look back over those 25 years, you know, for me to grow and to have the experience and to expand my skill set and to learn about multi asset, you know, my move from UBS to Schroeders was about building a fixed income business that I had no idea what I was doing. But it was a huge opportunity for me to take a risk in my career and you know, it's really paid off. So I think always being challenged, being interested and getting rewarded on the other side of that has really helped me get out of bed every day, you know, and now I'm in a leadership role, which is another whole different challenge.
Camilla
Talk about that more. No, I totally agree. So, but stepping back for a second, like you talk about, you know, the motivation of getting out of bed every day and lots of people think it's the money, but it's not the money, right? You can tell for you, it's absolutely not the money. What is it? I mean that motivation, how does it sit with. Are you the person at the barbecue on the weekend that no one wants to talk to because everyone. You want to talk about the economy and all that sort of stuff. What is it? Tell me.
Kellie
No, I don't, I don't talk about my work when I'm at barbecues. I remember, I remember when I recently got promoted and someone said, oh, one of the school dads said, oh, I heard you, you've been promoted to like head of. And you know, you're leading a big investment team now. And you know, and that was like sort of a two minute discussion, you know, and then we'll on to like travel and food and new restaurants and when's the next party? So I have this clear sort of separation between what I do outside of work and what I do at work. But my whole life is very high energy, you know, and this is why I think some of my friends would say I'm too much. You know, I'm always on the Go moving forward, you know, wanting more. What are we doing next? You know, and that's, that's, I think that's great. That's what really drives me, you know, at work and outside work is just having that energy to, to learn and grow and just be the best you can be with what you're doing, like and how you show up to work.
Camilla
So how did you. So tell me, talk a little bit about your day today. So you, do you go to the gym in the morning? Do you start with a coffee? How does it work?
Kellie
Yeah, as soon as my feet hit the floor, it's coffee. It's. Yeah, I love. Yeah, coffee and wine are my two things I probably cannot live without. But yeah, oven like I do try and train three times a week. Like I do have two young boys, 10 and 12, like and a very busy husband that's got ADHD. So like I'm trying to escape them most of the time. So having that.
Camilla
Yeah, I think we all are at the gym. No one hour of free time.
Kellie
Yes. It's just, it just keeps you mentally sane. And you know, we, we work, you know, I think post Covid, you know, you're available 24 7. We do a lot of night calls, early morning calls. But you know, I think just having that routine and the structure around, you know, being able to have that outlet for yourself is, is just so important. I've also started playing netball on a weekend. I was actually a great netball player, play centre. But I think I'm too old.
Camilla
Oh, me too. O no, no, no, no. Never, never too old, never too old.
Kellie
I am like dragging myself around that court where I was like in my 20s, I was great, I was fit, I was like, I was a gun. And now I've gone back and I'm like 45. Oh my God. Like every single joint is strapped before I get on that court. But.
Camilla
Oh really? Again, it's just that you walk off needing crutches.
Kellie
Yeah, but it's, it's that time that's, you know, mine and it's, you know, that's where my extra time goes, is just trying to stay fit and healthy to keep up with my crazy family.
Camilla
100% agree. 100% agree. Plus you want to be, you also want to like for my purposes, that I want to be the best self role model for my children when it comes to not only my work ethic and the stuff that I do in the community, but also for health, you know, eating healthily, looking after my body, all that sort of stuff going to the gym. So they can sort of, they can, they can see, you know, why it's important to eat properly and, you know, do exercise.
Kellie
It's just that balance and I like to have.
Camilla
And mental. Yeah, mental health.
Kellie
Yep.
Camilla
So important, so important. So we've got to coffee.
Kellie
Yeah.
Camilla
Gym three times a week. Then what happens?
Kellie
So day to day, so, you know, I'm normally in the office by around about 8 o'clock but like I will stay up late to see how the European markets open, you know, then if I'm still awake I'll be like, okay, where's the US going to open? So, you know, back to this sort of obsession with markets and you know, this is what I've really, you know, which has been difficult is this move into, you know, from managing money into leadership. Because I still want to manage money. Like I'm obsessed with that, like delivering great returns, trying to beat the benchmark, you know, over our time horizon. You know, I love markets, you know, I live and breathe it. So, you know, for me I'm, you know, in the office, I'm looking at, okay, what's, what's happened overnight, like what's the data, what response has the market had to that? You know, predominantly in the US and in Europe. Like what's the expectation for how Asia will open up this morning and Aussie markets in rates and credit? You know, I'm then looking at performance positioning. Like is there a change of view given new information where we're making the money?
Kellie
Like what's the attribution, you know, we're making it from, is it top down asset allocation, is it bottom up stock selection, is it our rates calls, is it our credit positioning, you know, is it our inflation positioning that's really driving those returns? So it's that sort of assessment of what's happened overnight and the reassessment of our view, you know, but always anchoring that to our framework for decision making, you know, have our signals change, is there a reason why we need to be changing positioning? But then probably the most. Like my favourite part of the day is just the debate, you know, and this is where we have like our strategy meetings or our portfolio construction meetings where we're debating strategy, you know, and this could be, you know, more tactical, this could be more strategic. That's where I, I really love having a seat at the table. And this is where I encourage, you know, my whole team to sort of step up and, and really own different components of the markets and of the portfolio so we can actually have a Interactive debate. And we do have a team based approach to decision making.
Kellie
So again it allows people to have this accountability and discretion and really getting into some good debate on the outlook and how we should be positioning portfolios.
Camilla
How do you keep yourself accountable? Because when we're doing the equity season, one of my questions to this them who I interviewed were, you know, when you fall in love with a stock, like how do you make sure that you're, you know, looking at it through a blank sheet of paper, particularly when it's fallen like 20% and, and flip side for you, like how do you, how do you make sure that you're not falling in love with a position or like a long term hold or a long term view? And I assume it has to do with the debate of the team and how do you ensure as a leader that you don't get group think and all that other stuff which I, you know, I'm always interested to understand because yeah, not everyone's good at it.
Kellie
Yeah. And this is where I think it sets apart great fund managers versus good or mediocre fund managers. And you know, what a great fund manager has, is core beliefs in terms of their investment philosophy. You know, what is, what are your core beliefs when it comes to fixed income investing? You know, what do you think really drives risk and returns when you're constructing portfolios and having that philosophy anchored to your decision making framework? You know, and that really helps you manage through these periods. You know, if you think about the current environment, the COVID crisis, we've seen a huge amount of volatility and it's a very different investing environment than what we saw in that post GFC decade. So you've had to adapt. But just going into a strategy meeting and debating the view is not that helpful. You need to be anchoring to your core beliefs and your decision making framework for the starting point of portfolio positioning and that's how you remain accountable.
Camilla
Yeah. And then how do you listen to your gut? Like sometimes. And that I guess is a whole bunch of making the right decisions, seeing things. You know, history never repeats itself, but it definitely rhymes. Like, or are there times in the past where you sort of gone, you know, the numbers are telling one thing, but my gut's telling me another. I'm going with my gut like that. I mean that art and science, mental decision making is really, really difficult. I'm sure on the ground when you, particularly when you're getting shot with a whole bunch of like information like inflation data and interest rate data and you know, and Consumer data. Like, how do you, how do you listen to your gut through that?
Kellie
Yeah, like a great example of this was coming into the COVID crisis, you know, and this was more sort of a gut call than, than anything else, you know, because Covid was not something that was in our decision making framework. And you know, we, we were having a call with our Asian business just on fixed income and you know, they were sort of, we said how things going up there and they're like, oh, there's this crazy virus going around and like, you know, we're going to be shutting down economies and what the hell's going on? And you know, and this is where it all started to break out in, in Europe. And you know, we sort of went back to our desk and said, okay, this, these, these guys seem pretty concerned about this. Like, you know, what if this actually starts to spread? Like borders are still open, you know, and this was at, at the start of 2020, you know, so we started to get defensively positioned. You know, credit markets were already pretty expensive. You know, we started to reduce credit risk. We started to add in more interest rate risk into our portfolios.
Kellie
And you know, that was something that was not in our framework. Like it was our, you know, us sort of looking forward to saying, okay, well what environment? Like if, if central banks are easing cash rates, governments are shutting down economies, forcing recession on economies. What does that look like? You know, cash rates will be falling, credit spreads will be blowing up. So we got ourselves in a position where we raised up to 50% cash in our portfolios. Now we added in a lot of interest rate risks, we've reduced all our riskier assets. The multi asset guys were reducing equities, we were reducing credit risk. So that was like a huge structural change in our portfolios. And you know, it was only probably two to three months later that we were reversing all those trades because economy started to reopen and it was like, this is, yeah, this is like it's game on, you know, and then like equities were going.
Camilla
Yeah.
Kellie
You know, to the sky. And it was, it was just insane. It was the most craziest time I think I've, I've ever managed money.
Camilla
And then credit markets would have been entirely shut during that two month period. Three month period. Right. And just the blowout and expense of it all. I mean, and you were making these decisions without fully understanding the outcome and I'm assuming with only a certain amount of information. Right. So knowing that your gut is telling you well, and you know, on the flip side, those discussions or those decisions that you made, you know, had it not, had everyone left the borders open and all that sort of stuff and people hadn't shut down economies, would have made you, you know, public enemy number one possibly, if it had been entirely the other way around, because essentially you've gone to cash, you're sitting too defensively and I would say way more defensively than everybody else at the time because they would have waited for more information, waited for more information, waited for more time and wow, like you could have, you know, that could have been a really risky decision.
Kellie
Yeah.
Camilla
On the flip side to do as.
Kellie
Well and you know, this is where we had to get a handle on real time data very quickly, you know, and that's, that's the difference now is like we're in a whole new regime of investing where markets, economies, you know, this is one of the fastest economic cycles we've seen and you know, for us coming out of that, you know, being on the right side of it, you know, and this is where you've got to be looking forward, you know, not backward and not waiting and, and taking risk. You know, you don't, as a fund manager, you don't want to be irrelevant, you want to be so relevant.
Camilla
Too true.
Kellie
You know, this is an environment that's, you know, it's very different to that sort of post GFC decade and you need to be moving quickly and you need to take risks to actually stand out and you need to have an investment process that can adapt. You know, I think that for me in, you know, my 25 years is that there is no normal environment. You know, if you think about the 70s, you know, through the 90s, through the GFC now, sort of the COVID crisis, you know, all of those regimes have had different dynamics of growth, inflation, interest rates, dispersion in terms of asset class returns. And you need to have a process that can really move with different regimes to be able to adapt. And I think if we didn't have that, we probably would have done a pretty poor job through the COVID crisis. There were some great opportunities to be had and to be able to go into that with a huge amount of dry powder, you know, has set us up for some, you know, a great investing environment, you know, over these last sort of few years.
Camilla
Totally, totally, totally. So on the flip side, I mean, that's a great decision to have made at the time, given the limited information that you had. Talk to me about a mistake that you've made in your investing career and what, what did you learn from it and now and what do you bring to your everyday based on that?
Kellie
It probably would be that period through the, like the post gfc. So, you know, again, when you know your biggest calls, you know, your probably your best calls and your worst calls are always through crises. You know, it's pretty easy to be managing money in a, in a benign environment, more difficult to add alpha, but you can really stand out through crises. And I think that period through the post GFC decade where we had low growth, low inflation, structurally low interest rates, you know, it wasn't valuations that were driving markets, it was the economic cycle. You know, just interest rates being low meant that all assets rallied pretty hard. And through that period we were putting way too much weight on valuations. You know, equities were expensive, credit was expensive. You know, it was all about passive investing, it was all the search for yield. And in terms of our framework, we were putting too much weight on valuation. So it meant that, you know, it got us out of markets too early in an environment where that post GFC decade went for 10 years. So.
Camilla
Yeah, long time, long time, yes.
Kellie
And this is where, you know, that was probably one of our biggest mistakes. Like if you think about, you know, my career here at Schroeders over close to 20 years is our process, you know, was anchored too much to valuation, you know, and coming through that period, you know, we've now started to put more weight on, on the cyclical and liquidity components of our portfolios, you know, having a more shorter term perspective on markets. Also, given this cycle has been so fast and sharp, you know, you don't want to have a three year view because valuations could stay expensive for three years. Well, they could be cheap or expensive. So having a process that you can adapt, failing fast, making those changes in terms of your framework, you know, what are you anchoring to? The regime has shifted. How do we need to be constructing portfolios differently?
Camilla
So do you think that the current regime that we're sitting in right now is more a structural change that we'll see pan out for a little, little while longer? Or do you think it's more like a transitory period where we'll sort of go into, I'm going to say, normality going forward? I'm thinking to myself, you know, Trump's been coming back in again, there'll be tariffs put on, you know, there's going to be a lot of change from a global economy point of view and people start getting sort of more defensive and domestically Orientated, I think during this, this process. Do you think that that's how, how do you, how are you using that to think about putting portfolios together going forward?
Kellie
Yeah, like coming into, to coming in and out of the COVID crisis, like every year we conduct a strategic investment conference. And this is where, you know, globally and domestic, we're thinking about, okay, what does the next five to ten years look like? Like, have we entered into a new regime and what does growth and inflation look like in this regime and interest rates and policy, whether it be monetary or fiscal policy compared to the previous decade. And this is where we've started to construct portfolios differently because we do think we've moved into a structurally different regime. And this regime I would say is probably more normal than that post GFC decade where we're seeing higher growth rates, we're seeing inflation above central bank targets between 2 and 3% and much more appealing interest rates, structurally higher interest rates because we have higher inflation and higher growth rates. And that environment has come about because we've seen central banks and governments expanding at the same time. If you think about that post GFC decade, there was a lot of austerity, there was no fiscal spending. It was all about monetary policy dominance where now we've got central banks and governments expanding together to produce these high pressure economies.
Kellie
And like that's a great thing. And it means that, yeah, at least.
Camilla
They'Re working together, not working against each other.
Kellie
Yes, but again, you know, it makes central bank's job much harder, you know, for government spending. It's like with the problem we've got here in Australia, you know, growth is very weak. We've got the government holding up growth rates, you know, where the RBA wants to get inflation down so holding cash rates higher.
Camilla
Yeah, totally.
Kellie
Um, so we're, we're definitely doing different things in our portfolio. You know, we're building in inflation protection in our portfolios, which is something we haven't done for over the last 12 years.
Camilla
Years. Yeah, totally.
Kellie
We're managing our interest rate risk in, in wider ranges is a huge amount of dispersion in asset class returns, whether that be sort of domestic versus global, you know, whether it mean high quality bonds versus low quality bonds. Countries are doing different things. Like the US is still exceptional, but you look at countries like Europe that are very weak, lower inflation. There's a lot of different dynamics happening in the world economy. And that means for active fixed income managers like us, it's a great environment. I'm glad that we've left behind that sort of QE world, you know, that post gfc, because this environment is where active managers can, can management outperform totally.
Camilla
Because, I mean, you can take bets, you can take positions, things are volatile, things are, you know, not going to plan necessarily. And taking a passive view on certain asset classes and particularly fixed income. I am 100% a believer in active management in this space. Yeah, absolutely.
Kellie
So it's, it's a great environment for us. And you know, the last few years has, has really shown that, you know, active managers, especially in the fixed income space, in that type of regime, you know, can deliver strong returns.
Camilla
Absolutely. So let me. Let's flip. Let's flip. And you mentioned earlier you got a new big job this year, which is very exciting. Thank you. Congratulations and very exciting. So what does leadership look like for you and how do you get the best out of your team?
Kellie
Yeah, this has been my adaptive challenge, if you'd like to say, is fun.
Camilla
This is your growth area. Yes.
Kellie
And this is where, you know, I've always been one to be. I want to be challenged. I want to broaden my skill, I want to grow and to try and step away from managing the money and have a broader leadership role where, you know, I'm trying to juggle our broad book of business alongside managing a team. That's been my, my biggest challenge. But I knew, you know, this is probably about five, five years ago when, you know, I was, I was deputy head of fixed income, so I didn't have the deputy title. I wasn't head off. And you know, my, my boss at the time sort of said to me, you know, you can lead without a title. And, and this is where I started to act like a leader, even without the title. And I really enjoyed it. And it, it felt easy because I didn't have the title, the responsibility, but I could actually do it. And, and this is where I was getting, you know, a huge positive response from different parts of the business in terms of how I was going about things, you know, thinking more strategically about the business, like what we should be doing differently, you know, our product lineup, like, what does the market look like?
Kellie
What's the regime look like? So thinking strategically about the business and our product set and what we should be doing differently, you know, engaging with the business at that leadership level, you know, and trying to establish trust and, you know, by building great relationships within the broader business, I think has been my key to success, to step up into that leadership role. And, you know, we have recently restructured the team, you know, and that. That has been difficult. I think some people love change. They, you know, what are we doing next? Like, yeah, I want to be doing something different.
Camilla
Adapt very well at all. Yes.
Kellie
And, like, I'm. I'm definitely a bit of a. Okay, we're doing it. Come along. I'm a bit of a. My way or the highway, let's go. And, yeah, but you need to take.
Camilla
Everyone on the journey because that's my issue too.
Kellie
Yeah. Yeah, it's so, yeah, trying to, you know, those that are probably a little more uncomfortable with change, you know, and trying to manage those people that, you know, are more thoughtful and what does it mean for me and what do I need to be doing differently and, you know, how's this going to look and feel? Trying to manage that, you know, alongside the people that are sort of with me and, yeah, let's go. Has been challenging. And then we've also had, you know, markets have been so volatile over, you know, the, like, 21 through to 2024. So, you know, a lot of change. Stepping up into a new leadership role as well as markets being volatile. It's been a lot. Like, bloody hell. I look back and I go, how have I even done that? Like, how am I even alive? Like, it's because you just do it.
Camilla
Because. Right. Yeah, just do it. You love it. You got the right people around you. You've got your right routine, You've got strength in mind. You can you just push through adversity? Like, yeah, I. I'm. I'm made of the same. I made it the same cloth.
Kellie
Yes. But it's. It's true.
Camilla
Just get shit done. And that's the deal.
Kellie
You do. It's like, I don't have time to be thinking. It's like, there is so much to do. Let's just go, you know? And I think the. My other big thing is, like, having this sort of will to win. It's like, I want to win. Like, I want us to be the competition mindset. Yeah. It's like energy. Like, having too much energy, I think is a good thing, but being very competitive and, like, just wanting it so bad and having the platform. Why are you laughing?
Camilla
Because it's so true. It's like. It's like I'm repeating myself back to myself.
Kellie
But, like, I just. Like, this. This life is too short. It's like, let's just do it fast. Let's just make it happen. I used to have a pen. I used to actually have a pen and it had. Make it happen. And I think I left it in a toilet somewhere and I was devastated for weeks.
Camilla
Hopeful. Hopefully the person who found it is inspired by the pen.
Kellie
I know, but I was, like, so obsessed with, like, make it happen. I had just these pens everywhere. I think people were just, you need.
Camilla
The mug, you need the mug. Kelly says, make it happen. But again, that's so true.
Kellie
That's like. That has been. My challenge is back to this sort of adaptive challenge. Moving into this leadership role from being a fund manager is listening more and telling less. Because, like, I've got to where I am today. Because I do like to tell, we're doing this, we're doing that, we're doing it this way, not that way, and let's move forward. But now I'm at a point where, you know, it's bringing everyone along in the journey. It's more listening, which is really hard for me. But I'm. I'm so true. Like, I love self reflection and I love this transparency. You know, it's like, tell me what you want me to be doing differently, like, how can I help you be better?
Camilla
Sometimes it can be harsh.
Kellie
Yes.
Camilla
Some. If you ask, if you ask for feedback, sometimes it can be harsh. Right. So how do you. How are you resilient for that? Because that's difficult.
Kellie
I. But I. I want it so bad because I want. I want to be able to bring my best self to work. And if there's something that someone sees that, you know, especially in terms of leadership, because leadership for me is just a new thing, like over the last five years. So, you know, I'm still learning and growing. So I want that radical transparency of, tell me, let me come out of a meeting and like, I actively seek it out, like, how do you think I performed in that meeting? How do you think I could be doing better? You know, and these are to senior leaders within the business, because I want to learn, I want to grow. Like, I want to step up. And you need to be able to take on that negative feedback or constructive criticism to grow and not actually take offence to it, not get defensive.
Camilla
It's just such a different mindset too, right? Because it's a real growth mindset. But being able to take on that growth, you need to be resilient, you need to, as you, as you write, you need to be able to be asking for it and seeking for it. And the more you do that, the more resiliency you bring up and the more you can grow. So it's, it's something that I don't think A lot of people do very well and I'm, I'm glad that both of you and I are on that same journey.
Kellie
Yes. Did you so like in your career, Camilla, did you. Were you at that point where you were, you know, comfortable, sort of seeking out that constructive criticism? Never to be still.
Camilla
Never. I still ask for it. And it's sometimes in areas where you think you're really good at and you go, oh, oh, oh really? And it's fine. And also depends on who it comes from.
Kellie
Yes.
Camilla
So, you know, and, and because like I was welcoming feedback coming up through the team as well as coming down and down, feedback is easy to sort of get because you go like, okay, well someone who is more senior than me is giving me feedback down. But the up feedback I can find quite challenging because one, it takes balls to actually.
Kellie
Yes.
Camilla
Be able to give that feedback.
Kellie
Feedback right.
Camilla
From someone who could be, you know, could be career can, you know, damaging. But also then you not giving any flickering of oh my God, that's right. And it's interesting that they're taking that take on it, whatever it is, without actually giving away that you've sort of gone, oh. And then you sort of that and then you have to go, okay, cool, thank you very much for that. Really appreciate it. And then you have to go away. And that self reflection piece, that, that can be challenging.
Kellie
Yes, that's the hardest.
Camilla
But it's never easy.
Kellie
This is the way you've got to look at. You know, I go back to sort of having that challenge. It's like, well, this is a new challenge. I'm going to show you that I can be good at this. But yeah, if you come out of a presentation or something, you go, oh man, I was like, top ship. And then someone goes, oh no, no, you're rubbish.
Camilla
You know, and that's the mark here.
Kellie
Yeah. But that to me makes me really self reflect on what they've said and it's a challenge for me to grow. It's like that's another thing I can tick off.
Camilla
Yeah, but it's a, it's a, it's an evolution, Right. It's not a revolution. Right. So it's like you become a leader today and you know, and then today, tomorrow I'm going to be better. It doesn't work like that. It's this, this incremental change that you need to test and learn and try and do things differently that you just like my. I don't think I'll ever be good at it. It's like parenting you're never going to be good at it. You just want to do the best you can and you can learn. You're just learning and incrementally changing as you go. Like, that's. That's my view.
Kellie
Yeah, that's like, this morning I walked out my door. I had to get on onto a call with the US this morning at 8:00. And my eldest has. He's broken both bones in his arm. Like, my husband's away. Like, I. I had to leave and my youngest had to get on the bus and I'm like, screaming at him, shut the front door, Shut the front door. And, like, if I get out of that house alive, I'm winning. So, yeah, like, it's, you know, I think just having that mindset of, like, okay, I'm good.
Camilla
I'm surprised he didn't call you and say, mum, I can't. I can't tie up my shoes.
Kellie
No, it was, it was ready before I left, but he left the front door wide open and I had to ring my neighbour to say, rach, can you go and shut that door for me? But he's. He's like nine. Yeah, but, you know, you just gotta. You just gotta do it. You just gotta wing it. You just, you know, and that's why, like, my boys are, you know, 9 and 12 and, you know, we live such a crazy life and they're just, they're just living in it. They've just got to go with it.
Camilla
Yep. 100.
Kellie
They. Sometimes they just like, what's going on now, Mum? Where you go now, Mum? Keep up. What's happening? Yeah.
Camilla
It'S like, I'll tell you later. Just keep up with me, you'll be fine.
Kellie
Yeah, don't ask questions.
Camilla
Yeah, don't ask questions. Just. Just do. Yeah, exactly. Tell me about the best piece of advice that you were given in your career and why it was so important.
Kellie
Oh, so for this one, I'd probably say, like, if I think about my career, like, the early stage, the middle stage, and now I would say I'm probably in the later stage. The first advice was from the head of equities at Amp Capital. When I left that business as a graduate, he said to me, there's only three rules for being a fund manager in this industry, and that is stay close to the money. Stay close to the money. Stay close to the money. And that's what I did for 10, 15 years. And then my middle part of my career was where I was at UBS for 10 years. And I love that business. And that's where I worked with Ann Anderson and Stuart Piper. And they taught me everything I knew about fixed income, but they weren't going anywhere. And I was like, what do I do here? I just continue to become more senior in my role. And I remember someone outside the business saying to me, you know, after sort of being 10 to 15 years as a fund manager, you know, becoming a senior fixed income fund manager at ubs, they said to me, you know, you need to take risks, because taking risks is what will get you places.
Kellie
And that's exactly what I did when I left UBS to move to Schroeders. You know, moving to Schroeders to build out a fixed income business. And that was a huge risk for me. Huge. It paid off, but at the time, huge risk. And then in today's sort of role, you know, the leadership part of my career, I would say the career advice, you know, was from my existing boss, you know, saying that I can lead without a title. Like that to me was like a pivotal point in my career where he had acknowledged that I did have the right skills or temperament to be leadership material and giving me authority to lead without a title. And, you know, then it was, okay, this is game on. I'm doing this.
Camilla
Great.
Kellie
So different advice at different points. Yes. That's why I think there's not just one. One piece of advice.
Camilla
No, I agree.
Kellie
It's relevant for different parts of your.
Camilla
Career and it's the timing of the advice to like, as you say, the different types of group. But yes, sometimes it's the timing that, that you're open to it. You. You've. You've gone through something or something's happened and that valuable piece of advice comes in and you go, holy moly.
Kellie
Yeah.
Camilla
Yep. And then the light goes on and you just like, you pivot, you change tack. Whatever it is, it can be just the timing of everything.
Kellie
Now you have to want it.
Camilla
Oh, totally, totally. You need to have that open heart to take in that piece of advice. So we are coming to the end. So quick fire round. This is where we get to know the real Kelly. Would you. Ready?
Kellie
Yep. Ready.
Camilla
And you've already sort of, sort of half answered this question really early on. My friends would describe me as, oh.
Kellie
Too much energy and highly competitive.
Camilla
Nothing wrong with either of those. Okay, next one, next one, Next one. Shares or shoes?
Kellie
Shares. I don't have time for. Shopping?
Camilla
Nah. Online?
Kellie
Yep.
Camilla
My kids don't even know what a supermarket looks like. My. My biggest. In my biggest personal investing Mistake was.
Kellie
Oh, biggest investment mistake, I would say not buying enough. US tech, bitcoin and gold in this current new regime.
Camilla
I'm with you on that. I think I agree. And like the AI thing, oh, my God, it's just going and going and going.
Kellie
It's gone.
Camilla
I think I. I think I already know the answer for this next question. Ask for permission or ask for forgiveness.
Kellie
Oh, what do you say? What do you think my answer is?
Camilla
Ask for forgiveness.
Kellie
Yes, I, I'm. I, yeah, I am doing it. Like, I'm doing it. Ask questions later. And that's why I think you've got to come back to that. Failing fast. It's like, look, that didn't work out, but we're going to do this, you know, there's no asking for permission. You're right.
Camilla
On the weekend, I like to.
Kellie
Oh, we do a lot socially, so, you know, there's. There's always got to be a party of some sort in there on the weekend, hanging out with the boys. Like, I don't get to see them too much during the week. So there's lots of sport, lots of parties, catching up with family. Like all our family live within five k's of my house. And it's two sisters forever a babysitter. Yes. But like two sisters married to two brothers. So we have get out. Yes. And we live in the Sutherland Shire. It would only happen there. So there's a lot going on. There's sport, there's family, there's lots of socialising, there's parties, lots.
Camilla
Live life to the full. I love it. So next really important question, what is your favourite ice cream flavour?
Kellie
Coffee. You know, if it was a wine ice cream flavour, that would probably be my second.
Camilla
Yeah. But do you know what? Glad it's not. And actually you probably could get alcoholic popsicles, but we're just not going to go down that.
Kellie
No, definitely right now.
Camilla
Okay. What was the last song you downloaded?
Kellie
Oh, I just. I can't say one song. Like, I love dance music. That's like, probably one thing people don't know about me is that I used to be a. A dancer. Well, what I thought was a dancer, I used, like, I used to love going clubbing and just dancing, like all night. So anything like my play.
Camilla
You have a favourite dj.
Kellie
Yeah, look, I just got back from. Well, I didn't just get back. I went to Vegas in April and went to all the. The pool parties over there and I saw loud luxury Tiesto. Oh, it was amazing. Yeah, David was there. It was just that Trip just blew my mind. It was amazing. So, Gordon, anything with like a beat.
Camilla
So I'm gonna put in. Yeah, so I'm gonna put a little, little thing. So I find joy either on a ski mountain or on a dance floor. And I think we have more in common than we probably even know.
Kellie
Yes.
Camilla
So let's just leave that for another. Maybe that's our deadline. Another day. So if I wasn't doing this job.
Kellie
I'd be a. I think I'd be doing something like sort of forensic science. Like my, my mother was a pharmacist, so I was very interested in like crime and drugs and like, you know, dad was in banking, mum was in pharmacy. So, you know, they were the sort of two careers that, you know, so exposed to at an early age. I've always like, I just set my sights on finance early and I was, you know, I just had that ambition that I want to have a very successful and impactful career and it is.
Camilla
Going to be in finance and leave a legacy. Love it, love it, love it. Okay, next question. Do you have a special superpower or talent that no one knows about that everybody needs to know about now?
Kellie
I think it'd be dancing. It's not a superpower. It's not a superpower. But when people see me out, like our Christmas party last year, I did a full performance and everyone was like, what the hell is going on?
Camilla
Wow.
Kellie
It was, it was in the ivy.
Camilla
You're in fixed income. Like holy moly.
Kellie
Yeah, fixed income, the boring asset class. Except for Kelly.
Camilla
Yeah, totally. Except for Kelly.
Kellie
How did she get through?
Camilla
So true.
Kellie
How did she get through?
Camilla
I don't know. No, no, I don't know. The glass is definitely half like full and definitely overflowing with you, which is totally not a fixed incomes mindset. Who inspires you?
Kellie
I would have to say my dad. You know, again from, you know, he had a, he's had a very successful life and career, you know, and just trying to balance that sort of work life, you know, in banking is, is difficult, you know, and I think, you know, our family is super strong, you know, with, you know, what he's achieved and you know, our sort of community together. Yeah, he's done a lot.
Camilla
That's nice. Love dads.
Kellie
Yes.
Camilla
Okay, last question. Describe in three words why fixed income is the most inspiring career choice to have.
Kellie
It's challenging, it's rewarding, but it is, you can also, it can be so impactful. Like there's that bigger purpose, you know, and I think that is what you know, gets us up out of bed every day is having that bigger purpose, you know, and actually being able to give that value, you know, in your expertise to like a. In a bigger way in terms of the delivery to institutions and retailers on delivering them their investment objectives.
Camilla
The most wonderful way to end our podcast today. And you know what? I can't even start to even sum this up. Okay, so we've covered the fact that you're the og. We've covered the fact your dad was one of your inspirations to get into the industry, which we love. We love the fact that you're back out on the netball court and that you never left a dance floor. Yes, we absolutely. We love that you're a glass half full and not a glass half empty fixed income professional. And we just loved your learning lessons over this past Covid regime, but also the GFC regime and how it's all affected the way that you look at markets, but also how you lead your teams. And I just love it. Oh, my God, Kelly, will you come back? This is so fun.
Kellie
Yes. I think we need to go out dancing and skiing first.
Camilla
Oh, yes.
Kellie
Warm up.
Camilla
Yes. Give me a dance floor and a high mountain any day. And a pair of skis. I am. Or give me both. That's fun. Let's do that. That could be on the bucket list.
Kellie
Yes.
Camilla
That was so fun. So, Kelly, thank you and I'm sure we'll see you soon.
Kellie
Yes, my pleasure, Camilla. Thanks for having me on.
Camilla
You know the information that is in this podcast. We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance would be a fabulous career for.